Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Aziz Bagh (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. After a greatly extended period of time for discussion, and a volume of text that would utterly swamp the article under consideration, the actual opinions expressed in the discussion lean much more towards a consensus to keep than towards deletion, and those opinions are supported by reasonable reliance on coverage as discussed and on the effects of an award being won. bd2412 T 05:18, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Aziz Bagh
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

It is a building that simply fails WP:GEOFEAT because it requires significant coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability, and WP:GNG for the lack of significant coverage from multiple secondary reliable sources that are WP:SIGCOV. Nothing has changed at all for 8 years now since the last AfD (and the award it won is not a notable one). I did find this in my WP:BEFORE (other than passing mentions in books or listings on websites) is a good coverage of Aziz Bagh on https://telanganatoday.com/a-turn-of-century-palatial-mansion but nothing else to satisfy WP:GNG. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 16:08, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:55, 12 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 18:56, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 10:32, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete this non-notable building with only 3 sentences. Trillfendi (talk) 18:14, 19 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep, per the nomination, which includes very substantial and fully-adequate-on-its-own citation. Which includes statement that the U.S. government issued a postage stamp about it.  There will surely exist other coverage, too.  Perhaps the deletion nomination is a statement of frustration that the article has not been developed, but wp:AFDISNOTFORCLEANUP.  Tag the article or post complaints/suggestions at its Talk page instead. --Doncram (talk) 19:12, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment First of all, assume WP:AGF before accusing me of being "frustrated" for the article state and proves you ignored to read my nomination from the top to the bottom, sadly. I never said the article should be cleaned up or that the content in it sucks. Also your vote violates WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES since you are not offering them but claim the coverage will surely exist. And I am refering you again to WP:GNG (so that one source is not enough) and WP:GEOFEAT. The building was not proclaimed as national heritage so it is not even that. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 19:24, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hi, I don't think I suggested anything negative. It would be perfectly fine IMO for an editor to be frustrated about the lack of development over the long time frame that you mentioned in your nomination.
 * However, sure, another source, found quickly by going to the webpage on Aziz Bagh, website which self-proclaims it has been online since 1996, is the published 2009 book about Aziz Bagh, which is itself on sale and summarized at Amazon books.
 * The Amazon summary mentions Aziz Bagh was built in 1899, and that it "was honored with the most prestigious award 'INTACH', Indian National Trust for Art and Cultural Heritage on July 27, 1997, 110 years after its construction", too. Is that award the one you regard as "not a notable one"?  I dunno, but we do have an article about the Indian National Trust, which seems reputable, having some United Nations consultative status and so on. --Doncram (talk) 19:45, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Also, refining a Google news search to search on "Aziz Bagh" using quotation marks brings me to New York Times article: "Returning to Hyderabad, Once a Land of Princes and Palaces", New York Times-Jan 23, 2015 with snippet "I visited family friends at the neo-Classical Aziz Bagh, where seven generations have lived since 1899 in a three-acre compound so bucolic ...".  I don't have access to the article myself, but that seems like a substantial mention. --Doncram (talk) 19:53, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the clarification. I thought you were implying I hated the article because it has no development. Trust me, I know about WP:NEXIST. And thank you for going along the discussion with me. Yeah, the award I mentioned was that. Yes, we have an article about the INTACH, but not about the award itself, and to presume it is notable would be wrong since the notability is WP:NOTINHERITED. Netnavigate website seems like a primary source so it cannot contribute to WP:GNG and Zaheer Ahmed who wrote the book is the son of the founder Hasanudin Ahmed, also making it WP:PRIMARY since it comes from the person who has connection to the villa itself. And finally the NY Times article. The proper link is this https://web.archive.org/web/20180615113003/https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/25/travel/once-a-land-of-princes-and-palaces.html and sadly it is a passing mention of one sentence which you have said already. The article goes to discuss Famous Ice Cream and Vinita Pittie just a sentence later. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 20:04, 22 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for providing a link to a complete accessible version of the NYT article. The full article is detailing the nearly-lost old Hyderabad, once grand and spacious, and lists various places including 250-year-old house where Vinita Pittie lives and so on.  It comes across to me that no roundup of historic Hyderabad structures would be complete without mentioning the remarkably surviving, spacious, Aziz Bagh.  If there were a regional or national historic register comparable to the U.S. National Register of Historic Places or the City of Los Angeles' LAHCM, it would be on it.  The full sentence about Aziz Bagh is: "I visited family friends at the neo-Classical Aziz Bagh, where seven generations have lived since 1899 in a three-acre compound so bucolic you’d never guess it existed deep within the thrum of the Old City." --Doncram (talk) 02:45, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I added links now in the article to a couple photos of historic Aziz Bagh in the MIT library collection, and there is room to improve using the good 2017 article which you had found and has not yet been used in the article. Also, I would not be so quick to dismiss the 2009 book, or to dismiss it so completely.  Neither you nor I have seen it, and I want to say that it obviously could be a great gold mine for covering the place.  Also I note that both "civil servant" and author Hasanuddin Ahmed and poet Aziz Jang Vila are likely wikipedia-notable persons. --Doncram (talk) 02:50, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Also another source is available from the first AFD about this topic, which closed Keep. From that: "Keep - as so often with non-US/Canada/UK/Australia subjects it's not too hard to find suitable references if you actually look - eg at Know AP (Know Andhra Pradesh) Aziz Bagh is described as one of Hyderabad's Architectural Splendours.   http://www.knowap.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1039&Itemid=69 Opbeith (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2011 (UTC)".  This should have been consulted.  I also expect there is more extensive off-line content about events and persons there, from the heyday which might have been in the 1940s or thereabouts.  But it is notable for surviving intact and in well-preserved state.
 * That source covers a number of significant Andhra Pradesh places which received the INTACH award in various years, and it appears that it is awarded to just one place each year in either Hyderabad which is huge or in Andra Pradesh which is even huger. That suggests the INTACH award is quite important, contrary to skepticism or lack of knowledge about it in the nomination. --Doncram (talk) 07:21, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I saw that already, and the problem is...that the article was written by the "administrator" with no names, so I am not sure could this be a reliable source here. Could imply it is a blog, and blogs are not reliable sources. While this is good amount on info, WP:GNG requires RELIABLE sources. I cannot judge reliability here. Also for the comment upwards, WP:GNG dismisses that book because it requires secondary sources (published by someone reliable and not affiliated with the subject). Primary sources can be used in the article, but does not show the notability. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 17:25, 23 January 2019 (UTC)
 * As you note I cannot judge reliability here about the book. I think the book should be obtained by someone.  It may be a very good work, with plenty of citations itself, and with photographs that indisputably establish various facts, and so on.  I don't have it either.  Does any reader of this AFD have access via inter-library loan or whatever to the book, in order to use it to develop the article.  Also it is not terribly expensive, $40 on Amazon i think it was.  However, based on what's been uncovered here, and based on my experience with historic sites elsewhere (which one can like or not), I think this is pretty obviously a keep based on resources known (and consulted or not) plus likelihood of offline resources existing (which I think is pretty high) plus known fact of an award from a National Trust agency (though details of the award are not completely known). I will likely not comment a lot more.  thanks, --Doncram (talk) 22:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * , the book that you describe above is published by CreateSpace; a self-publishing-medium with no minimal peer-review. The author seems to be entirely non-notable too and has no relevant academic expertise. Add WP:PRIMARY on top of that.And, the book fails RS by a mile or so. And, we don't need to see it to dismiss it. Also, creating a website in 1996 is not (by any means) highly unusual and I have no clue about how that contributes to notability of the subject.AFAIR, INTACH gives 3 annual awards; but I disagree about any of them being even a moderately good indicator of notability. Need to look on this locus; though.FWIW, I take no opinion on the merits of this AfD and most-importantly, will need to run a vernacular-source-search, over 'morrow. &#x222F; WBG converse 19:34, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for commenting and for your plan to look into it further, though I am less skeptical than you are given the same information so far. Again a book full of photos and perhaps diaries or other primary records or whatever can obviously be a reliable source used in developing the article.  You can/do argue that because the source is non-independent of the subject, it can't go towards notability.  However I think that depends more on the specifics of the source, and it needs to be seen, IMO.  And we already have other indications of importance.  And for a place this old there is likely offline coverage pre-internet, too, IMO.
 * Suppose INTACH annually recognizes three historic sites. It's my understanding that INTACH covers Andra Pradesh, which had population of about 85 million then!  (In 2014 Telangana was split out from AP, so AP's population is reduced to 49 million).  For the United States, population 327 million, the U.S. (and Wikipedia) recognizes several thousand new designations of historic sites each year.  So this would seem comparable to a U.S. National Historic Landmark, say, not merely a listing on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places.
 * FYI, I understand this is the mansion/estate of the tax collector of Hyderabad State, the princely state, i.e. it was not the palace of Nizam of Hyderabad himself but rather of the top / most important civil servant. --Doncram (talk) 21:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Okay, this archived copy of INTACH source (which is in the article) shows Aziz Bagh was one of five INTACH awards that year, in 1997. And it maybe implies the region covered is Hyderabad, a city larger than City of Los Angeles, which recognizes I think dozens of new Los Angeles Historic-Cultural Monuments each year, overlapping or in addition to the historic sites recognized by the U.S. within the city each year. --Doncram (talk) 22:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Please see Heritage structures in Hyderabad, India. Hyderabad has about 150 designated heritage buildings, designated during 1996 to 2005, including the palace of the Nizam of Hyderabad (designated in 1996) and Aziz Bagh (designated in 1997).  The list-article needs development, and I am currently fixing it up some, and there is some confusion (including that Aziz Bagh is clearly listed in 1997 but does not appear--or at least not under the same name--in a HUDA list in 2006 which seems like it should be the summary of all the separate yearly lists), but IMO every one of these heritage sites is pretty clearly Wikipedia notable.  I may try to make a table and merge two overlapping sections in the list-article.  These are places like the historic high court building of Andra Pradesh, etc., appearing to me to be equivalent to U.S. National Historic Landmarks. --Doncram (talk) 23:12, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , reliability depends on the context of usage. We cannot brand a source into black-and-white and that is always implied to an extent; whenever we use the binary-classification.
 * Suppose, I write a book about myself (and my family lineage) and publish a few copies through my next-door press;
 * Is that reliable for supporting a claim that I was born in (say), 1976.
 * Yeah; without attribution.
 * Is that reliable for supporting the claim that my forefathers were the zamindars of the region?
 * Maybe; but with attribution.
 * Is that reliable for supporting the claim that my palatial abode has been among the finest examples of Indo-Saracenic architecture in Eastern India?
 * Nope; plainly put. And, nothing needs to be seen.
 * Is that a reliable source for proving the notability of my house/me/my lineage in absence of other sources?
 * Never ever. And, nothing needs to be seen.
 * We can use that as a source for relatively mundane claims iff the notability has been already established in the first place and by other sources.
 * The INTACH Heritage Award (AP) is hardly a notable award to propel something to default notability. Any building of any size and more than 50 years of age can self-nominate for the award and the award targets the best conservation efforts.
 * You have a weird sense of wiki-notability and having been subjected to sanctions in the past; you need to read WP:NOPAGE.
 * I don't spot anything over regional dailies; post 2000 or so. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Is that a reliable source for proving the notability of my house/me/my lineage in absence of other sources?
 * Never ever. And, nothing needs to be seen.
 * We can use that as a source for relatively mundane claims iff the notability has been already established in the first place and by other sources.
 * The INTACH Heritage Award (AP) is hardly a notable award to propel something to default notability. Any building of any size and more than 50 years of age can self-nominate for the award and the award targets the best conservation efforts.
 * You have a weird sense of wiki-notability and having been subjected to sanctions in the past; you need to read WP:NOPAGE.
 * I don't spot anything over regional dailies; post 2000 or so. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * You have a weird sense of wiki-notability and having been subjected to sanctions in the past; you need to read WP:NOPAGE.
 * I don't spot anything over regional dailies; post 2000 or so. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't spot anything over regional dailies; post 2000 or so. &#x222F; WBG converse 15:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't spot anything over regional dailies; post 2000 or so. &#x222F; <b style="color:#070">WBG</b> converse 15:34, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 21:55, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Hey, User:Winged Blades of Godric, I don't particularly care, but IMO your comment verged over into domain of being a personal attack. You are invoking some past shite having nothing to do with this AFD as far as I can tell.  And I did not create this Aziz Bagh article, I am instead contributing productively/positively to a discussion about an article created by someone else.  But about articles I have created, I am batting approximately .999, seriously.  I.e., out of tens of thousands of articles that I have created, there have been just a few random ones where I was mistaken about notability (perhaps for good reason) and where the article was deleted (and I probably agreed to it or proposed its deletion myself). --Doncram (talk) 01:41, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete unfortunately. I generally prefer to preserve articles about heritage places. This is an unfortunate example of a building which has not been recognised by the government. I don't consider INTACH recognition to be notable as their recognition process is not selective and happens through local chapters. (Something like ASI list would be an example of what is truly notable). Other than government recognition, the biggest problem is the lack of coverage. I tried Hindi searches but results I am getting are not about the same building. The book about the building is self published which doesn't add much.--DreamLinker (talk) 03:48, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
 * User:DreamLinker, it turns out it has been so recognized, see below. --Doncram (talk) 18:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * No, it is not a state protected building/site. Place of historical importance in a state are usually protected by the state government and the list for Hyderabad (Andhra Pradesh) is here list of state protected monuments in Andhra Pradesh (now Telengana) - Aziz Bagh is not part of this list. HUDA is an urban planning agency for Hyderabad. The adding of a structure to a "heritage list" by a local municipal agency is largely insignificant. The bigger problem is the lack of coverage about the building.--DreamLinker (talk) 21:46, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. North America1000 09:38, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I came close to calling this a no-consensus... but let's give it another week.
 * Keep - This mansion seems pretty clearly encyclopedic. On top of the citations currently in the article, It is discussed in depth on page 204 in, "A Guide to Architecture in Hyderabad, Deccan, India", a manuscript written by MIT Research Librarian Omar Khalidi in 2009, who also cites, Hasanuddin Ahmad, Mahfil, (Hyderabad: Wila Academy, 1982), p. 153 (Hasanuddin Ahmad being the former owner). It was also declared a heritage building by the Hyderabad Municipal Administration and Urban Development in 2013. Smmurphy(Talk) 19:53, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 00:16, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment. Thanks User:Smmurphy for your info;  i added the 2013 official designation of Aziz Bagh as a heritage structure to the article.  Some more from the MIT librarian-authored study should be added too. Note, so this is one of only a few officially designated heritage structures in Hyderabad city or metropolitan region, a huge area.  I have edited a bit at Heritage structures in Hyderabad, India, please see, and note there is more development to do there.  So Aziz Bagh was in a sort of top 10 list, i.e. within the first two batches of 5 places designated by the INTACH, Hyderabad awards, when that was making a private start in effect making nominations for wider recognition.  Aziz Bagh is now (2013) officially one of the 166 heritage buildings designated by the government.  The heritage structures list-article needs to be better integrated in covering the INTACH chapter's nominations and the finally designated places, and in linking to articles.  I created at least one new stub article, for St. John's Church, Secunderabad, and found my way to make more than a few links, e.g. Makkah Masjid, Hyderabad.  Based on the ones I can see, it appears that Aziz Bagh is among great company, and I presume that all 166 will be accepted as Wikipedia-notable.  It would be nice to have some help from editors in Hyderabad, with access to more sources to develop these more quickly, but this is a start. --Doncram (talk) 18:46, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * P.S. I just posted notices about this AFD at an inactive WikiProject Hyderabad and also at the India noticeboard. --Doncram (talk) 18:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't think "officially designated heritage structure" counts for much, especially when the designation is by a local authority, and especially when the Indian land/property system is so corrupt. There is no standard for designation in India of which I am aware and it's bad enough that we seem to think US National Listings & UK Listed buildings are inherently notable without adding what will be hundreds of thousands of minor roadside Hindu temples etc if we pursue this line. We have too many stubs of this type, including of US stuff, without encouraging it further. If anything, we should be deleting WP:NHLE and WP:NRHP stub articles that rely almost entirely on their listing details, not adding more of the same from elsewhere. And, yes I am aware that this is one of 15 designated by the body in question at that particular time, not one of thousands. - Sitush (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I agree with you. Thank you for your understanding about India. Actually we don't have anything as "officially designated heritage structure". What we have is ASI list of national and state protected monuments (which would perhaps be the equivalent of National Registrar of Historic Buildings in US). Aziz Bagh is among neither of them, but rather in a list of heritage structures identified by a local municipal body. That counts for far less. That, coupled with the fact that there is hardly any coverage, is what makes me feel that this is not a particularly important building. There are many such 100+ year old havelis in India and I don't think every one of them would be notable.--DreamLinker (talk) 22:08, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure it is perfectly relevant to this discussion, but I would disagree that very many stub NHLE/NRHP articles are about subjects which are not encyclopedic. Similarly, I would disagree that there shouldn't be articles on hundreds of residential buildings in India (I would guess well over a thousand such structures are encyclopedic). Khalidi's manuscript includes about 100 "residential structures" in Hyderabad; even if an article were created on each of these, that would result in a relatively small number of articles given the age, size, and cultural importance of Hyderabad (Category:Houses in Paris contains a similar number of residential structures in that much smaller and younger city). Smmurphy(Talk) 22:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I am fine with articles on historic houses, but there should be some detailed independent coverage (otherwise I prefer merging them to a list). I don't think however that every house older than 100 years would be notable. About Aziz Bagh, Khalidi's manuscript is not a great source, as it relies on primary sources without critical analysis/verification. I do agree about the Western bias (There are many articles about historic places in London), but I think in this case the building itself is not particularly notable or has not been properly researched. On a historical note, I thought Paris (established ~ 1200s) is actually older than Hyderabad (established during the later Mughal period ~ 1550s)?--DreamLinker (talk) 23:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep. The INTACH award clearly qualifies it per WP:GEOFEAT. There aren't that many given out every year. Also note that only 151 buildings had been granted cultural heritage status by Hyderabad by 2013. In an historic city of nearly 7 million people that isn't very many at all. Lacking an official national built cultural heritage listing system for India, we have to rely on this sort of thing to establish notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
 * , I think the biggest problem is the lack of quality independent coverage to pass WP:GNG. Just to clarify, "Lacking an official national built cultural heritage listing system for India" is not correct. We do have an official list of protected sites by state/national. The INTACH (which is a private NGO) award is given out by each local chapter (and there are many such chapters all over India). While I admire the work of INTACH (in my city, they do heritage walks, book exhibitions etc.), I don't think the local awards are significant, particularly given that the selection criteria is not transparent. About "buildings had been granted cultural heritage status by Hyderabad", this isn't exactly correct either. The HUDA (a local municipal agency) added these to a "heritage list", which is not the same as being granted heritage status by the state government.--DreamLinker (talk) 03:21, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I know. That's why I said "Hyderabad" and not "Telangana"! I maintain that this is enough for notability. I would be very surprised if such a house in the UK, for instance, would not be a listed building. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * It looks like a large bungalow with some embellishments. The only thing it would be listed in would be the local A-Z. Cesde v a  (talk) 19:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Really? A Palladian villa? I can only conclude that you don't know a lot about heritage listing. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
 * If a few tiny ionic columns and rather unimpressive facade make that bungalow a palladian villa, then I guess you are right. Cesde v a  (talk) 16:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep Significant coverage ( and ) satisifies WP:NBUILD.--<strong style="color:#555555">Pontificalibus 16:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Both of these are the same article (seems like one is a reprint of the other).--DreamLinker (talk) 11:00, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Apolgies for the wrong link. For the avoidance of doubt, these are sources I beleive contain signficant coverage i.e. "more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material":, , . The first is an entire article, and the other two both contain paragraphs that address the subject directly and detail why the building is notable. These are both more than a trivial mention, which is exemplified by the NYT source which while mentioning some details, does so in passing in the context of a number of places the author visited that week.--<strong style="color:#555555">Pontificalibus 11:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.