Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/B.A.M.


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Despite three relists, this is a BLP and no reliable 3rd party sources meeting GNG have been provided; the only possible close is therefore to delete. Black Kite (talk) 11:42, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

B.A.M.

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:BASIC, WP:ANYBIO, and WP:MUSICBIO. This person appears to have co-produced songs for various notable artists, but there are few reliable secondary sources to support biographic notability. The article makes a claim of a Grammy Award nomination, though the source to support this doesn't once mention his name. It seems he was one of many who co-produced a few Grammy nominated songs--barely an indication of notability. The article also lists a hodge-podge of iTunes links, but most of the links don't even mention him. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:53, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Weak keep - It is a stub article, but he was still Grammy Award nominated, nobody cares about your opinion about him being "barely nominated", he was still nominated regardless, which means that he still meets requirements for him to be notable for Grammy Award nomination. Xboxmanwar (talk) 13:50, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The two links at the bottom of the article supporting his Grammy nomination don't even mention his name. I'm not quite sure why you reverted my edit when I deleted them.  Bogus links don't add much to an AfD.  Magnolia677 (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
 * You don't understand how Grammy Award nominations work, those albums were nominated, which means that all the producers and songwriters on the album are also nominated because of their work on the album, all of the producers and songwriters name doesn't need to be on the nomination, only the artists name needs to be there since they are the main recipient, so they aren't bogus, you can see more information about this process here. Xboxmanwar (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Optakeover (U)(T)(C) 05:55, 20 October 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   09:59, 20 October 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 01:44, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep per Xboxmanwar's rationale. He's a credited producer on two Grammy-nominated songs - the significance of his role in those productions isn't on trial here. 157.235.66.80 (talk) 19:42, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Could you please provide a link to a reliable secondary source which confirms this person was nominated for a Grammy? Thank you.  Magnolia677 (talk) 20:49, 28 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I already told you how the process works, I don't know why your asking this person for sources if you don't need them since they are automatically credited, as explained before. Xboxmanwar (talk) 03:26, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - Fails the WP:GNG, the Grammy Nom was only marginally connected to the subject - they weren't the primary artist or anything. Sergecross73   msg me  00:58, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter, still Grammy nominated. Xboxmanwar (talk) 03:26, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Says who/what? Are you citing something in particular? Sergecross73   msg me  04:13, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * They were producers on the Grammy nominated albums they worked on. Xboxmanwar (talk) 04:15, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I understand that. But there were a lot of writer/performers/production/engineer/assistants in these recordings. A Grammy doesn't magically make everyone in the building notable... Sergecross73   msg me  04:41, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I have asked a few times in this discussion for a source which specifically states that B.A.M. was nominated for a Grammy, but the reply seems to be that because B.A.M. was tangentially involved in the production, they automatically fall under the Grammy nomination umbrella. Was the janitor in the recording also Grammy nominated?  Magnolia677 (talk) 10:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, since everybody on the album is automatically nominated for the Grammy, that would be plausible. Xboxmanwar (talk) 14:42, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I will assert that TGT alone were nominated for the Grammy for the album Three Kings. According to this source, no fewer than 35 people assisted them to achieve this tribute, including:
 * Andrew Hey, B. Edwards Jr., Black TyProducer, Bob Robinson, Brandon "B.A.M." Alexander, Brandon Hodge, Carvin Haggins, D&D, Damon Thomas, Darius Logan, Devin L. Resnover, Dominique Logan, Don City, Eric Dawkins, Fabbien Nahouwou, Ginuwine, Harry Casey, Harvey Mason Jr., Ivan "Orthodox" Barias, James "JDoe" Smith, Javad "MrKlynik" Day, Javonte Pollard, Jay Valentine, Kenyon Dixon, Kristal "Tytewriter" Oliver, Lonny Bereal, Marcus "Whit" James, Marcus Hodge, Rick Finch, Robert Newt, Tank, The Underdogs, Tim & Bob, Tim Kelly, and Tyrese.
 * ...but the nomination belongs to TGT. Otherwise, there would be some reliable source--maybe a sentence or two on the Grammy website--which says "Brandon "B.A.M." Alexander" was also nominated for this Grammy. It is indeed very awkward to ask those participating in this discussion to assume that all 35 of these people were "Grammy nominated". Magnolia677 (talk) 15:30, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Read this for more info, but the nomination does not belong solely to just the performer, but to the whole team that helped make the album, you don't need a reliable source or any source for this since they are automatically nominated in the process. Xboxmanwar (talk) 15:36, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The link you provided leads to a large, unsourced section of a Wikipedia article. If the editor of that section had added sources I could confirm its truth; otherwise its circular sourcing.  Could you please locate a reliable source to support this?  Thank you.  Magnolia677 (talk) 15:47, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Straight from the Grammy Awards website. Xboxmanwar (talk) 16:05, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the link to a webpage on the Grammy Award website. On that webpage it states: "The Record Of The Year category recognizes the artist’s performance as well as the overall contributions of the producer(s), recording engineer(s) and/or mixer(s) if other than the artist."  However, that same website only lists the winners of the Record of the Year, not the nominees.  To maintain text-source integrity, this source cannot support that Brandon "B.A.M." Alexander was a nominee for a Grammy.  Magnolia677 (talk) 16:36, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, you don't need a whole list of songwriters, producers, etc. that were on that album to be nominated, the citation you put from the FAQ of the Grammy Awards states exactly what it says, to recognize the artist and the songwriters, producers, etc., but the songwriters, producers, etc. don't need to bed listed because once the album is nominated, the crew is nominated, plus it would be a long list to add to. Xboxmanwar (talk) 17:15, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

The even bigger issue is the lack of third party reliable sources that cover the subject in significant detail. It fails the WP:GNG - the ultimate standard we're trying to meet here. A Grammy Nom can be a good indicator of notability due to the increased likelihood for sourcing to exist, but it's not a substitute. (And it's probably less of an indicator when we're talking about a tangential production member and not a primary artist.) This is especially crucial because we're dealing with a WP:BLP. The fate of this article is ultimately going to boil down to whether or not there's significant coverage. So far I have not seen evidence of this. Sergecross73  msg me  17:04, 30 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:53, 30 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: This is getting silly. There are numerous sources already listed for this guy's contributions to the album, well cited on his own article as well as the articles for the albums in question. These are the credits listed on the work itself, after all. Just to confirm, here's a source that lists Brandon Alexander (B.A.M.) as the producer of Open Invitation: http://www.allmusic.com/album/open-invitation-mw0002206694/credits and one that lists him (as Brandon Hodge) as a composer http://www.allmusic.com/album/three-kings-mw0002557795/credits -157.235.66.80 (talk) 17:29, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that confirms his production credits, but not the question of whether or not that itself proves his notability. I mean, look at the credits - there's over 50 people listed there. I counted around 7 to 8 of them had "Producer" in the title, and another 7 to 8 with "Engineer" in the title. A huge number of people were involved in the production of these releases - a Grammy Nom isn't enough to give a free pass to notability to everyone from the sessions. The fact that no one has produced any sources that satisfy the WP:GNG is telling as well. Sergecross73   msg me  14:21, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * He had a significant role in an album that meets WP:MUSICBIO 8. "Producer" isn't a token role in music (as opposed to its misuse in TV and cinema) - it means "recording artist", which lies somewhere between "director" and "editor". He's the top credited staff on Open Invitation. No one's suggesting that the accountants and vocal cleanup crew need articles, this isn't a slippery slope. 157.235.66.80 (talk) 17:18, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * MUSICBIO states that it may indicate notability. The doubt of this though, is, as already mentioned, there were 8 other producers involved as well. We don't know how involved he was in particular, nor can we verify the details because no one can come up with any sources that cover him in significant detail. As I alluded to above, things like MUSICBIO or WP:NALBUMS andWP:NSONGS are considered indicators of potential notability, but the WP:GNG is the actual standard here. The complete failure of the WP:GNG completely squashes out that potential. You'd be better off showing how many features Billboard has done on him or something. Sergecross73   msg me  18:42, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * The standard is determined by looking at WP:N. WP:GNG is co-equal with several other guidelines.  We also assess Wikipedia notability by looking at various essays, WP:OUTCOMES, and the WP:N nutshell.  Unscintillating (talk) 20:21, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, and we're currently looking at a WP:BLP with zero third party reliable sources that discuss it in detail. Its currently sourced to a bunch of iTunes listings, and a few articles that don't even mention him by name. As is, there's no way around it - this is not an unacceptable scenario on Wikipedia.  Sergecross73   msg me  20:35, 7 November 2016 (UTC)
 * And for what its worth to the AFD closer, the principal account in favor of a "keep" argument was just blocked again for making unsourced claims on a BLP, so its rather clear he doesn't understand the concepts at play here. Sergecross73   msg me  20:43, 7 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete Hardly any secondary sources about the subject and I am unable to verify the claims of being grammy nominated. We do not just assume that someone has been nominated, we require evidence. I do not see the evidence here. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:21, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.