Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Balbhadra Singh


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While some editors advocated a merge, that would not be possible unless sources conclusively indicate that these are in fact the same individual. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:54, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Balbhadra Singh

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This person is most likely the same as Balbhadra Singh (politician), the 12th Raja of Raghogarh (a part of Gwalior Residency). The CricketArchive source has his name as "Raja Balbhadra Singh" and his team as Gwalior. The Raghogarh State article mentions that Raja Balbhadra Singh II was born in 1916 and was a "good sportsman". Dee 03  10:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions.  Dee  03  10:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Dee  03  10:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions.  Dee  03  10:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  Dee  03  10:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment Sure. Cheers for looking at those - like I say there are others I guess you'll bundle together. (I assume you've not done it already, I haven't checked...) Bobo. 10:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * If you mean bundle duplicate articles, I haven't found any other. I do have a feeling Roop Singh (cricketer) could be Roop Singh, but there is not much to connect the two other than the fact that they both are from Gwalior. Dee  03  10:50, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, no - I meant as a single AfD discussion. Bobo. 10:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect to the article about the politician. Although it is likely that they are the same person, we can't rule out that they are two different people with similar names. Therefore retaining the edit history could be potentially misleading. Reyk YO! 12:42, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It is highly unlikely that there was another Raja (king) with the same name in the same place at the same time. But yeah, we don't know that for sure. Dee  03  15:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * I'll take your word for it :). Reyk YO! 20:17, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge or Redirect (see below). This is slightly complex. If they can be shown to be the same person - and I do think we're close to being able to do that - then the articles should be merged with Balbhadra Singh as the article name - as main subject. Dee03 is clearly in a better position to determine that: I think it's likely from what's been laid out here.
 * If that can't be shown then I'd, ideally, like the article to redirect to Gwalior cricket team - I don't think there's a need to have a separate article for a team which played precisely one first-class match. But that article currently redirects to Madhya Pradesh cricket team - which appears to have absorbed it at some point. So, as he's already on the list, redirect to List of Madhya Pradesh cricketers seems the better option. Blue Square Thing (talk) 08:49, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
 * It would be easier to make an article called List of Gwalior cricketers for the individuals we're unclear of. I would bash some stats in there but I'm disheartened by all this as you know. Bobo. 08:56, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete a non-notable cricket player.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Based upon what other than your own opinion, exactly? At least cite some kind of guideline or justification... this may be entirely the wrong article to make this argument about anyway, if it can be established that the two individuals noted are the same. Bobo. 22:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. Unfortunately, despite all the circumstantial evidence we don't have reliable source confirmation that the cricket player and the politician were definitively the same person, so I can't recommend a merge, but the problem with the cricket player's article is that there are no reliable or notability-supporting sources present in it to establish his notability with. People are not exempted from having to have any solid sources just because the article claims something that sounds like it should be notable; hoax articles have been created on Wikipedia which made notability claims the subject didn't really have in reality (musicians claiming chart hits they didn't really have, writers claiming award nominations they didn't really have, etc.), so the notability test is not what the article says, but how well it references the things it says to reliable sources which properly verify the things it says as true. So no matter what notability claim is being made, we still can't keep articles without sources, and we can't just assume that the cricket player and the politician were the same person until we can find a source which confirms it either. Bearcat (talk) 15:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep . He played two first class matches. Per WP:NCRICKET usually we keep anyone who has played first class cricket. I have looked to see if he is the same as the politician and I don't think he is, but I'm not certain. There are 17 people with this name on LinkedIn alone. Szzuk (talk) 09:50, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * The CricketArchive source for the cricketer mentions his full name as "Raja Balbhadra Singh" with the title Raja being conferred upon a king. It was very common during that period for kings to take part in sports especially cricket. Post-Independence, several kings became politicians like Balbhadra Singh (politician). In the unlikely case of these two being different people, the cricketer would fail GNG as Bearcat has pointed out. Dee  03  11:58, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge. Yes I can see the logic and I think they are the same person. In that case I think we should merge the politician article to the cricket article. I see no need to have (politician) in the article title, it is unnecessary. Szzuk (talk) 12:29, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * I added the requested ref to the article. Szzuk (talk) 10:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Have you? The only new source I'm seeing in the article is a directory entry, not a notability-making source — and what I actually asked for was not a source that verified his existence as a cricketer, but a source which definitively verified the circumstantial but unconfirmed evidence that the cricketer and the politician are the same person. Bearcat (talk) 17:31, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * That ref does satisfy ncricket. It is a directory listing that proves he played first class cricket. Anyway, it isn't worth arguing about. Szzuk (talk) 18:17, 3 September 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Delete or merge?

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   06:13, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Neutral I'm 99% sure these two are the same, but I can't prove it. SportingFlyer  T · C  08:19, 5 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Books about early Indian cricket may contain some information on how Gwalior team entered the Ranji Trophy and if he is the same Raja. History books on Raghogarh/Gwalior State might be able to shed some light too. Since nobody has been able to present any concrete evidence yet, I believe "delete" on GNG grounds makes more sense at this point. If such proof is found later we can add a sentence or two in the politician's article about his cricket career. Dee  03  17:54, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with this. If this is deleted, I would kindly ask either you or the closer to put information about his potential cricket career on the politician's talk page. SportingFlyer  T · C  07:50, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sure. I've kept a backup of the cricketer's article on my computer. Dee  03  12:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Merge. These two are almost certainly the same person, just be be bold and merge the two. StickyWicket (talk) 11:32, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia does not make assertions like this on the basis of what's "almost certainly" likely to maybe be possibly true given the circumstantial evidence; we don't make such assertions at all until they're incontrovertibly verified by reliable sources as cold hard fact. Bearcat (talk) 22:10, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:14, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge but explain in the post-merge page that it is not entirely clear that these are the same person. Hyperbolick (talk) 18:08, 20 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.