Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ball–Fox rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. If anyone would like me to restore the article into userspace to facilitate a merge of worthwhile info to De'Aaron Fox or Lonzo Ball, please just ask.  A  Train talk 12:08, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Ball–Fox rivalry

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This article is WP:TOOSOON when Lonzo Ball and De'Aaron Fox have played each other a mere two times—zero times professionally. Sources themselves indicate this "rivalry" is too early to be historically notable yet: "The Fox-Lonzo Ball rivalry so many are desperately pushing ..." (The Sacramento Bee, October 7, 2017), "there’s a burgeoning — even if benign — rivalry between the two ... Whether we get a full-fledged rivalry for years to come or a cautionary tale of premature conflict" (The Ringer, July 11, 2017), "The novelty of the De’Aaron Fox-Lonzo Ball on- and off-court rivalry ..." Herald-Ledger, July 10, 2017), and "... one of the NBA's potential budding rivalries" (Courier-Journal, July 22, 2017). It also fails the policy WP:NOTDIARY: "... news reporting about celebrities and sports figures can be very frequent and cover a lot of trivia, but using all these sources would lead to over-detailed articles that look like a diary." If we exclude the verbatim quotes of incessant social media banter, especially by father Lavar Ball, there is little enduring substance to write about. Per the guideline WP:NRIVALRY, "Sports rivalries are not inherently notable." This fails WP:GNG with lack of significant coverage, when few sources provide a historical overview of the alleged rivalry, a usual indicator that it's just the liberal use of rivalry and trivial quotes to fill today's 24-hour news cycle. —Bagumba (talk) 07:12, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. —Bagumba (talk) 07:14, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete - this “rivalry” is a year old and doesn’t have the coverage needed to meet GNG. It has a long way to go before it’s Bird-Magic (and Bird-Magic doesn’t have an article). WP:TOOSOON. Rikster2 (talk) 12:06, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: I don't believe time is a factor in meeting WP:GNG, but in the year the rivalry has existed, it has received extensive coverage by several reliable sources. Some of them might not call it an actual "rivalry" but they still talk about the relationship between the two players. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:41, 15 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep - Per WP:NRIVALRY, rivalries have to meet WP:GNG. Considering the fact that there are multiple independent sources out there that say that this is a rivalry, who are we, as a reference work, to say "no, it isn't". I don't think that we have that authority. Thus, considering this, and considering the fact that there is multiple independent reliable sources that cover this, this rivalry is notable. RileyBugz 会話 投稿記録  18:47, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment It seems like rivalries would need to have sustained coverage over a significant period of time. I don’t see how that is possible for these two yet with just starting their pro careers and having matched up a grand total of two times. Rikster2 (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: This is an unusual case where the rivalry has received extensive coverage starting in college. Unusual, but still notable if you go by WP:GNG. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete this is pure media hype. The coverage is of people talking about a possible future rivalry. power~enwiki ( π, ν ) 17:30, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: Many of the sources claim that it is a possible future rivalry because they are describing it in terms of the NBA. In addition, the two players' relationship with each other has been extensively delved into by multiple reliable sources. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete: This falls under the rarely-cited second element of the GNG: that articles are subject to WP:NOT all the same. In this particular instance, WP:CRYSTAL applies, to wit: "Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content." Claiming that a "rivalry" exists between two players who've never met professionally is the height of blather from bored sportswriters on deadline, and there won't be a single article on this alleged "rivalry" appearing two days after the game.  At some point we just have to apply common sense.   Ravenswing   11:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: A rivalry does not necessarily have to begin at the professional level. While unconventional, WP:GNG would still apply due to how extensive the coverage of these players' relationship already is. Considering the way these two players' relationship has been framed, I am more than certain there will be many articles on them, although that isn't relevant to this discussion. Either way, it is best to simply stick to the WP:N rather than be swayed by your personal beliefs on this topic. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Reply: Well, I think it's best to put out your POV without seeking to rebut each and every comment with which you disagree, but I guess dissatisfaction's going all around. I stand by my position, that describing the aforementioned blather as a "rivalry" is just this side of insane, that I am correctly interpreting the explicitly stated provisions of the GNG, and that many a violator of WP:CRYSTAL likewise asserts great certainty in their views.  Why, I can even think of an NBA-related one ... can anyone find, for instance, recent articles describing how Markelle Fultz was going to be uniquely focused on proving to the Boston Celtics how unwise they were in spurning him?   Ravenswing   03:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete: the competition between any two teams/persons can be described as a rivalry and, due to the promotional nature of sports journalism, often is. Accordingly the raw count of "rivalry" mentions is not a reliable indicator of what can be considered a rivalry in an encyclopedic context. It is a tricky term to define, since there is no official meaning; I suggest looking for sustained coverage of an ongoing competition that extends beyond on-the-court play. isaacl (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: That statement is a bit too broad, because very few (much less "any") competitions between players are widely described as rivalries or receive significant coverage, like this one. There has been extensive coverage of the relationship specifically between these two players, whether or not the sources explicitly call it a "rivalry." And, like you said, these players' relationship has indeed extended beyond the court. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Pretty much any pair of high-performing players will be described as rivals at some point by sports journalism. In the current article, I don't see any examples of actual competition off the court. Is there a competition for fans, endorsement deals, grand parade marshal invitations, or anything else? isaacl (talk) 00:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * The difference with Ball-Fox is that they have been described as rivals countless times by independent sources. Fans, endorsement deals, etc. isn't generally what a rivalry is about; it is mostly dependent on on-court performance. However, this rivalry has been extended off-court with drama between the players' fathers and on social media, as well as the "ducking" controversy. TempleM (talk) 00:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Sorry, lots of pairs of players get described as having rivalries over and over, simply by virtue of playing during the same time period. We'll have to agree to disagree on what should be considered a rivalry in an encyclopedic sense. If it's only about on-court performance, then everyone at the top of the stats leaderboards can be said to have a rivalry with each other. In my view, a truly significant rivalry should extend further than that. isaacl (talk) 01:00, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * There are hundreds of NBA players in the current time period, but only a handful have been repeatedly called rivals. With Ball-Fox, it's not only about on-court performance either. It is a combo of on-court play and off-court arguments and drama. TempleM (talk) 01:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Arguments and drama in themselves aren't defining characteristics of a rivalry. Some kind of competition over something is characteristic of a rivalry. isaacl (talk) 01:10, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep (article creator): The reason many sources call this a future/budding rivalry is because they are talking about it in terms of the NBA. However, the name of this article isn't "Ball–Fox NBA rivalry" but rather "Ball–Fox rivalry." This is a rivalry that began in college. Yes, you could say they just played two college games against each other, but that is where WP:GNG comes in. There have been a number of story lines surrounding it, produced by a variety of people, so not all of it is purely media hype. Even if you personally think some of those story lines are media fluff, they have still been covered extensively by reliable sources, making the rivalry notable. This page is concise and doesn't go into unnecessary details that would fall under WP:NOTDIARY. The quotes and social media banter don't make up all of the article, and they are still completely relevant and well covered. WP:NRIVALRY states that they must satisfy GNG, which this does. TempleM (talk) 23:44, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment - Whoa - what is GNG for a rivalry? A rivalry is something built over time. With Shaq-Kobe, Magic-Bird, Wilt-Russell, etc you have YEARS of articles, books, documentaries. This isn't a player article where a couple of sources is sufficient to meet GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 23:55, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: A rivalry does not necessarily have to be built over a long period of time. The word mainly emphasizes a competition for superiority, and it generally involves some kind of tension, both of which are present in Ball-Fox. Regarding sources, all WP:GNG states is that there must be "secondary sources" and "multiple sources." And while WP:SUSTAINED discourages "brief bursts of news coverage," this rivalry has been existing for several months and has therefore had a lot of time to develop. TempleM (talk) 00:46, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment I disagree with you. There was a Shaq-Laettner rivalry once upon a time, but it had no lasting historical significance. If these players, or their teams, don't live up to their hype this "rivalry" disappears, which is why you need a longer period of time than less than a year (2 meetings). Also, you need to disclose that you are the article creator. Rikster2 (talk) 00:50, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment: While I agree with the first part of your comment, I think speculation that there is a possibility of this rivalry dying down is not a fair rationale to delete this article. In my opinion, we should base notability off of what is already out there. TempleM (talk) 00:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete: a handful of speculative sources are not enough evidence, otherwise Category:National Basketball Association rivalries would have a thousand articles. Neodop (talk) 12:10, 21 October 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.