Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bankrupt (band)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There is a consensus that the sources provided do not meet WP:RS Spartaz Humbug! 14:16, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Bankrupt (band)

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A similar article was created speedy deleted in May 2007. I originally deleted this article a second time but the creator stated that he had several independent sources to back up notability. I still believe the article fails WP:MUSIC because almost all of the links provided are for very niche type sites. Also, none of the albums the band has released have articles. They are on a minor label and haven't charted as far as I can see. I did a Google search but many were for entirely different bands called Bankrupt. There is a template that will need to be deleted if this article is. WoohookittyWoohoo! 09:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC) - 7. Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or of the local scene of a city; besides - 1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable
 * Delete. As above, fails WP:MUSIC. Nouse4aname (talk) 10:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Five new sources have been added, and quotes from reviews suggesting that the band also qualifies for notability criterion no.7. of WP:MUSIC

It is not stated here that the reference cannot be a "niche" publication. Several of these publications are considered as reliable sources in the punk community. Ox fanzine is the No.1 punk rock magazine of Germany.

I'll create pages for the band's albums. They may be on a minor label, but their recent releases are available worldwide on iTunes and Amazon.

Please note that a band is notable if it meets ANY of the notability criteria, therefore charting is not an obligatory criterion.

Regarding your argument of Google search: please do a search on last.fm. The only band called Bankrupt that comes up with over 15,000 listeners is this one. You can also search MySpace for Bankrupt for similar results.

Strummer25 (talk) 10:59, 26 September 2008 (UTC) If you bothered to actually look up the sources before you call them unreliable, you could see that Ox Fanzine has published 80 issues since 1988, and is the largest punk rock fanzine in Germany. Moloko Plus is another major German punk rock fanzine with over 30 issues released. Distorted Magazine from the UK is a very unique flash-based online magazine with over 20 issues published. Est.hu is a major Hungarian entertainment portal. Southspace.de, thepunksite.com, and kvakpunkrock.cz are all punk music portals with hundreds of reviews published, and having a significant readership. Also, Left Of The Dial (USA) was originally a respected print zine, before the author decided to go on as a blog. (see: http://www.insound.com/Left_of_the_Dial/artistmain/artist/INS20548/)
 * Delete None of the sources look reliable, just blogs, trivial mentions, etc. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP) 12:00, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete due to lack of references from reliable sources. Stifle (talk) 12:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please go through the List of punk bands, and you'll find that most of those band pages have significantly less references than this one. (In many cases, none.)

Strummer25 (talk) 12:40, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Some further comments. If you check Reliable source examples, the guideline states this:

Popular culture and fiction

Articles related to popular culture and fiction must be backed up by reliable sources like all other articles. However, due to the subject matter, many may not be discussed in the same academic contexts as science, law, philosophy and so on; it is common that plot analysis and criticism, for instance, may only be found in what would otherwise be considered unreliable sources.

To further back up the reliabilty of my sources, you can check out Ox fanzine on the German wikipedia: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ox_(Zeitschrift)

Check how many times ThePunkSite.com has already been used as a reference already. Just a few examples:

The_Falcon_(band), MxPx, Say_Anything_(band), Feeling_This, Unicornography

Examples of Left Of the Dial used as a reference:

Snatches_of_Pink, The_Hugh_Beaumont_Experience

You should understand that for punk bands punk music publications are the reliable sources. People who are interested in this music read these, they are not looking for punk bands in the Washington Post or whatever you were expecting as a reliable source.

Strummer25 (talk) 14:53, 26 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 (talk • contribs)
 * Comment Have you read WP:WAX? Stifle (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Other language Wikipedias aren't considered reliable sources. Stifle (talk) 15:19, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I've read it. You may ignore these facts, but the point is:

The band is notable once

1. It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable

The 10 different music webzines and portals I reference are non-trivial, independent, and reliable.

People who claim they are not reliable should provide evidence for this. "I believe" and "look like" is not evidence. I've provided background information on them, you should argue why they are not reliable.

Strummer25 (talk) 15:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How about mainstream media rather than minor websites? Stifle (talk) 16:04, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Punk rock is by definition a counter-culture against the mainstream. What is your definition of minor websites? As I said Ox Fanzine is the No. 1. punk rock publication in Germany. It has less readers than Billboard, but people interested in punk rock tend to read Ox and the likes a lot more than Billboard. So for people who would likely be interested to read this article on Wikipedia, Ox has more authority than Billboard.

Strummer25 (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


 * One of my references, thepunksite.com is used as a reference in this entry on Answers.com:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dredg-1

Also used as a reference in this mainstream entertainment portal article:

http://www.livedaily.com/news/13589.html

Also listed by several record labels among review references. Just one example:

http://www.sideonedummy.com/press.php?band_name=The_Gaslight_Anthem

These should confirm the reliability of the source, as it's an example of the following WP:SPS exception:

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications.

Strummer25 (talk) 21:07, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Another source, Distorted Magazine (ISSN 1754-3746) is referenced by the world's largest punk rock related label Epitaph Records:

http://www.epitaph.com/news/news/2881

Here referenced on a mainstream entertainment portal:

http://www.iomtoday.co.im/what-where-when/Double-dose-of-punk-in.4505078.jp

This is further proof that my sources are reliable.

09:36, 27 September 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Strummer25 (talk • contribs) 
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  16:50, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cirt (talk) 11:38, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Having a quick look over the sources listed in the article I can see that they would not (well, in my books) classify as reliable. They are composed of unreliable news sources, fan websites and a blog post. Running a quick google search turns up the classic "myspace  own website   irrelevant" results and a google news search turns up nothing relevant, reading over band notability guidelines, there is no evidence of reliability via sources and the band is not with a notable label. Because of these things, I think the band fails band notability criteria. — ^.^ &#91;citation needed&#93; 12:17, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Could you please elaborate your google search argument? If you search bankrupt on google, the official band website comes up within the top 5 results after some bankruptcy related articles. As far as the reliability of the sources, please check the links above where the same music websites are referenced by some of the most important independent labels, and by mainstream entertainment sites. Strummer25 (talk) 14:45, 1 October 2008 (UTC)


 * New reference added to article. Strummer25 (talk) 13:56, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - According to wp:v, the burden of proof lies on the person adding the material. None of the sources provided verifies the band's notability in my mind. I looked up the band on google news and saw only a trivial mention of the band in a prague newspaper. Morbidthoughts (talk) 20:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep If only more music articles were this well referenced. The band seems to be very well known in Hungary based on my limited decipherment of Hungarian news websites. Orpheus (talk) 10:22, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

"Is frequently covered in publications devoted to a notable sub-culture". So publications devoted to subcultures such as punk rock can be used as references when it comes to determining the notability of an act belonging to a certain subculture. Since there are numerous such publications referenced in the article, it passes the criterion and should be kept. Strummer25 (talk) 22:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Notability_(music) has an Others section for composers and performers outside mass media traditions, where criterion No. 5 is


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.