Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Banned from Argo


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Banned from Argo

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Delete - lacks independent reliable sources that are substantially about this song, no notability. PROD removed a while ago based on "mentions" of the song in sources-which does not establish notability-and the winning of a Pegasus Award, which is awarded by a regional fan convention in whose voting process anyone may participate. Song is not notable. Otto4711 (talk) 05:34, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep -- Probably the best known example of the filk genre. Included on Doctor Demento's "Hits from Outer Space" Any AfD based on the non-notability of the Pegasus Award can be presumed to be bad-faith. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 05:53, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, mentioned in The Adoring Audience: fan culture and popular media by Lisa A. Lewis, page 227. "...Leslie Fish's 'Banned from Argo' (1977), one of the earliest Star Trek songs written and one of the most well-known filks within the fan community...."
 * Per WP:N, significant coverage is more than a trivial mention. A couple of sentences in a 245 page book does not constitute significant coverage. Otto4711 (talk) 06:09, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And Textual Poachers:television fans and participatory culture by Henry Jenkins, page 264, Bjo Trimble's On the Good Ship Enterprise page 276, Star Trek:A Singular Destiny by Keith R. A. DeCandido, page 367.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 12:32, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, notability is not established through a sentence or two in a volume of several hundred pages. The Lewis book is 245 pages long and spends a couple of sentences on the song. The Jenkins is 343 pages and spends four sentences on the song, two of them recounting the plot. DeCandido is fiction and mentions the song in one sentence. The Trimble book is 286 pages long and again restricts its mention of the song to a single sentence. These are, literally, textbook examples of what does not constitute sources that establish notability, per footnote 1 at WP:N. Otto4711 (talk) 00:44, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If it's the "best known example" of the genre then there should be a plethora of sources that are substantially about it. Please provide them. Inclusion on a compilation CD does not equal multiple independent reliable sources that are substantially about the song. Unfounded accusations of bad faith are themselves sterling examples of bad faith and say much more about the character of the accused than the accuser. However, I will do what you failed to do, assume good faith, and assume that you confused the Pegasus Awards presented by the Ohio Valley Filk Fest with some other Pegasus Awards presented by some body other than a regional science fiction folk singing convention whose main claim to fame per its article was that it hosted a wedding in 1987. Otto4711 (talk) 06:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me, are you planning on discussing the article here, or just insulting me?--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 06:10, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Tell me, are you planning on retracting your unfounded accusations of bad faith on my part? Or do you not believe as I do that false accusations are an insult to the accused?
 * Now, since we've each had the chance to thump our chests a bit, I'll ask again: what independent reliable sources provide significant coverage of this song? Otto4711 (talk) 06:13, 27 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Leslie Fish. I thought about this one a lot and ultimately, I don't think it meets WP:NSONG.  I arrived to that conclusion because I do not think that the source claiming how well known the song is meets WP:RS.  I also don't think that deletion should be conidered as WP:NSONG states "Most songs do not rise to notability for an independent article and should redirect to another relevant article, such as for the songwriter, a prominent album or for the artist who prominently performed the song."  I'll admit that I was tempted to !vote keep based on the Pegasus Award, but I am on the fence as to whether it constitutes a "significant awards or honors".  Certainly it is within the filk circle, but outside...  Movementarian (Talk) 09:24, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Now that I am back in the land of unfiltered, high speed internet I was able to search around a bit more.  It is mentioned multiple times in paper published in the American University Journal of Gender, Social Policy & the Law discussing gender influence on copyright in the Filk community.  Movementarian  (talk)  15:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * First, the song is mentioned once in that 60-page paper, which is on the subject of the influence of gender on the attitude toward copyright in the filking community. It is not about the song in any way. Second, to once again point out the relevant guideline, WP:N, a subject is presumed notable if it has "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject...'Significant coverage' means that sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." WP:N goes on to note specifically that one-sentence mentions in larger works are trivial and do not establish notability. Everything being offered here as a source establishing notability is a mention in a much larger work, something that even those pointing them out acknowledge. "It's mentioned" or "I've heard of it" or "I like it" or "Even nominating this article is an act of bad faith" do not constitute reasons within Wikipedia guidelines and policies for keeping this article. [User:Otto4711|Otto4711]] (talk) 17:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, "mentioned once", but that mention is as the exemplar of the sixth type (of eight) of filk. htom (talk) 21:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, it was referenced multiple times. It was used as an example due to the importance of the song in the Filk community.  While the paper was not on the the song directly, the song was an important part of the central argument.  Movementarian  (talk)  23:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I found one reference but admittedly did not do a close read of every page. Even if it's mentioned in passing a few times that doesn't make this a source that establishes notability. And no, the song is not used to illustrate any part of the central argument of the paper's topic, which is the effect of gender on opinions about copyright amongst filkers. If there were multiple independent reliable sources that significantly covered the song, this paper could be used to source what type of filk song it is, but on its own it does not serve to establish the notability of the song, as its coverage of the song is trivial. Otto4711 (talk) 05:02, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * When every single "trivial" reference calls it some variant on "the most famous (or infamous) filk song", I think you're misusing the term. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm using it in exactly the way that it is used in WP:N: "The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton (Martin Walker (1992-01-06). "Tough love child of Kennedy". The Guardian. http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,1240962,00.html. ) is plainly trivial." Being the best known example of an obscure subject doesn't mean that the best-known example is notable per WP policies and guidelines. WP:IKNOWIT doesn't translate into notability. Multiple independent reliable sources that significantly cover the subject does. Otto4711 (talk) 17:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Umm, no, not parallel cases there. Three Blind Mice is only notable for Clinton's membership -- BFA is notable for, among other things, being so popular that an entire songbook of parodies was released a few years back. Also, if Filk music is notable enough for an article, surely its best known exemplar is as well....--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 18:00, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Notability of the music genre does not confer notability on examples of the genre as notability is not inherited. Multiple independent reliable sources that are significantly about the song establish notability and you have failed to provide any such sources. I get that you lurve this song but there are no sources and thus no notabilioty per WP policies and guidelines. Otto4711 (talk) 12:33, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions.  —SarekOfVulcan (talk) 14:28, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 14:08, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep, or merge and redirect to Leslie Fish. I'm not a filker, and I know what BFA is (although I don't think I could sing all eight original verses.) Most filk gets little press at all; that there is some notice there of this song indicates its notability (or perhaps its notoriety!) htom (talk) 03:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)


 * For example, TVTropes,

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BannedFromArgo uses the title as the name of a trope

Your merry band of travelers is crossing the stars/the earth/the county line, and you find a nice fun planet/country/town for some shore leave. You don't actually mean for bad stuff to go down, but these things happen. There was nudity, violence, stuff blowing  up, certain  substances  may have been imbibed/smoked, and whoops, you just started a revolution. Possibly, your name is Mike Nelson, in which case, you're probably screwed.

Whatever happened, when it's all over, you're not allowed back. EVER. Nor is anyone else on your crew.

Trope name is taken from the definitive filk by Leslie Fish, regarding the illustrious crew of the U.S.S. Enterprise and why they're not allowed back on Argo. May or may not be considered a Noodle Incident. The redheaded stepchild of You Cant Go Home Again.

Does not have anything to do with the Cool Boat from the Classical Mythology. htom (talk) 03:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * tvtropes.com is not a reliable source and it is not a source that is significantly about the song. Otto4711 (talk) 12:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep per the sources Sarek of Vulcan lists above. Jclemens (talk) 06:30, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Except of course they aren't sources; they are one- or two-sentence mentions of the song in several hundred page books. Have you actually reviewed these supposed sources? Otto4711 (talk) 14:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.