Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barbara Sobaszkiewicz (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Eddie891 Talk Work 15:22, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Barbara Sobaszkiewicz
AfDs for this article:


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Previously deleted due to failure of WP:NTENNIS and WP:GNG after the NTENNIS guidelines were revised to exclude 10k and 25k ITF wins. User:Fyunck(click) raised some excellent points in the previous discussion and, as far as I can see, absolutely nothing has happened since that makes her any more notable than she was before. No Fed Cup appearances and no coverage found in a Polish source search that would count towards GNG. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Tennis-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 14:43, 13 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment. Could you comment on why "In 2013, she played for Poland at the XXVII Universiade in Kazan, Russia where she won the bronze medal in womens' doubles" is not sufficient for NTENNIS or WP:ANYBIO#1 (The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor) or #2 (The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in a specific field)? Mind you, I am not saying it should be, but it sounds "nice" for someone like me who knows nothing about this sport. I concur Polish sources have no SIGCOV of her, and I nominated her for discussion on pl wiki (pl:Wikipedia:Poczekalnia/biografie/2021:08:14:Barbara Kapaś). I'll report anything of interest said there, but I fully expect people to raise the same question I did (isn't "one bronze medal" an indication of notability?). For the record, I do have serious issues with spamgraphies of minor sportspeople who attracted zero attention in media and just have participated in few niche events, but then, the same is true for people in other fields too we write articles for, and just say that some niche elected politicians, CEOs or scholars are notable due to the virtue of having some particular post or such (the problem is just much more accute for sport bios, since they form what, like half of Wikipedia biographies in existence...?). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:05, 14 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Consensus is never going to be that clear for tennis players due to the relatively low participation at AfDs. The Universiade isn't mentioned anywhere at NTENNIS so we can't say that this player meets NTENNIS even if she did win a medal. I did raise a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis but, again, participation was low so hard to draw any clear consensus. I think NTENNIS would need to be reworded to include the Universiade if we did want to go down the route of presuming notability for its participants. In my opinion, there would need to be some sort of convincing argument that most if not all players that get a medal in this student event pass GNG. With regards to ANYBIO, this is an interesting point and I don't think that it gets raised often with sportspeople. I could definitely see #1 applying for ATP Awards or WTA Awards and #2 applying for anyone in, say, the International Tennis Hall of Fame but, then again, such people almost always pass GNG anyway. It'll be interesting to see what comes back on pl.wiki in any case. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 08:06, 15 August 2021 (UTC)
 * FYI, the pl wiki discussion was closed quickly as apparently pl wiki's equivalent of NTENNIS I was not aware of does lists winning a medal at Universiade as sufficient for notability. Knowing very little about this event I am abstaining on whether it's overly inclusive or just right; I remain concerned that there is no evidence of media coverage of her career. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:01, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow, that's certainly a very different NTENNIS. I would also say that winning a medal at the Youth Olympics doesn't make you automatically notable, although many such people pass GNG or NTENNIS anyway so it's a bit of a moot point. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:13, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * @Spiderone I don't have much of an opinion here (and in fact I am leaning to delete myself given the lack of coverage, which suggests that sadly nobody cares about the Youth Olympics outside the participants and those closely connected to them...), but I'll just note the discussion at pl wiki ended with a near universal keep. Interesting how different groups of Wikipedia volunteers arrived at different conclusions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:41, 22 August 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - In looking at her article she is not even close to being notable per Tennis Project or NSPORT. I can't speak on whether she has reached GNG by some other means. Has she ever played on the WTA Circuit? No. Won a WTA tournament? No. Played in international Fed Cup? No. Perhaps entered the Olympics? No. WikiProject Tennis has a pretty low bar for automatic notability and she fails. Editor Vecihi91 has created a whole bunch of articles over the last year that have had to be deleted. This looks like another. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:47, 16 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - Five gold (and some others) medals of the Polish championship (2011-2013).  Nedops (talk) 09:32, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Which of the 6 criteria at WP:NTENNIS would this count towards? Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:33, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * None of them. The world of sport does not end at these 6 criteria :) Nedops (talk) 20:10, 19 August 2021 (UTC)
 * The issue is that this is the second time that this player has been up for debate and still there is no evidence or even a suggestion that she might meet GNG, which is ultimately the guideline that she should meet. We have policies like NTENNIS and GNG for a reason. NTENNIS allows enough GNG-failing articles to be created as it is, I really don't see the point in lowering the bar even further. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 07:59, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Less Unless (talk) 11:24, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator's argument. The Universiade is in practice an age-restricted tournament, and falls short of WP:SPORTCRIT's stipulations. Geschichte (talk) 13:44, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
 * Agreed. It's also a completely unreliable predictor of GNG, as is the case here. Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 06:52, 1 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:57, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Nothing significant has changed since the first deletion, except she has retired, which does noting to enhance her notability under WP:NTENNIS or any notability guideline. Newshunter12 (talk) 14:49, 3 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.