Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bardhyl Selimi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Tone 07:41, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Bardhyl Selimi

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I found one source (which may not be the same person). Article relies on primary sources. Slatersteven (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Dear Slatersteven, In the span of 30 minutes, you forwarded me with 4 notes on how to improve this article, and then with the notice for deletion. Is it not a bit rush? Articles based on sources from multiple languages take a bit to mature, especially if the aforementioned languages are not too well known or represented in the west. Sincerely Hyrdlak (talk) 14:22, 20 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak


 * Given I gave you the only source I could find, and you did not use it led me to believe it is not the same person. All you have done is used primary sources (as far as I can tell), but to establish notability non primary sources are needed, if you cannot even find one (in 30 minutes of being told to look for them) that raises doubts in my mind they exist. Notability means that they have been noted by third party RS (and the article is two hours old).Slatersteven (talk) 14:29, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kosovo-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 14:26, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Have a second look at the references, as I added more. The award eo:Diplomo pri Elstara Agado, which the Universal Esperanto Association gave to B Selimi in 2013, is a clear recognition of his work for Esperanto language and culture. Yes, there is no Esperanto country, but books and works are produced in this language for consumption all around the world. Sincerely Hyrdlak (talk) 15:22, 21 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak
 * Delete - Per nominator. Subject lacks independent detailed coverage in reliable sources. Meatsgains (talk) 16:56, 20 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Objection Dear Slatersteven and Meatsgains,
 * Yes, it was only 30 min before Slatersteven called for an improvement, and then slated this article for deletion. It is not a good practice. There is no Wikipedia document providing improvement must be done within half an hour before the proposal for deletion is applied. Meanwhile I worked on the development of this piece all the day yesterday. Please, have a look at the article's history
 * I wonder whether you know Albanian and Esperanto languages and cultures. I see no articles of yours on these fields. Hence, I propose that any notability concerns in this regard be adjudicated by an editor with a command of both languages and with a good background knowledge of the fields.
 * On the same basis, you cannot be seen as competent to judge whether the sources are 'dubious.'
 * I do not know about what primary sources Slatersteven is talking about, apart from the statute of the Albanian Esperanto Association.
 * If people's dates and places of birth unsupported by citations bother Slatersteven, I'd propose s/he may start with William Shakespeare or Boris Johnson.
 * With his 6 books Bardhyl Selimi has strongly contributed to the development of postcommunist culture and literature in both, Albania and Kosovo. On top of that with almost 20 translations from Albanian to Esperanto and Esperanto to Albanian he made the writings of numerous Albanian novelists and poets available in Esperanto and vice versa. This achievement should be lauded and made known to reserachers and interested parties at large around the world.
 * In light of the aforesaid, you are inexplicably biased and combative. Hence, let us have a competent third editor to decide on this piece and its merits.
 * Hyrdlak (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak
 * That is the purpose of AFD, to allow more eyes to look and decide. I did not nominate this for speedy deletion for that reason.Slatersteven (talk) 12:24, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Accusing people of incompetence, whataboutism (that isn't even well founded, as checking the sources on those articles will reveal), promotional agenda pushing to make known unknown stuff, and applying a subjective idea of importance in place of notability are not arguments based in deletion policy that garner successful results at AFD. Where are the sources that document this person's life and works in depth?  Where are the works about this person rather than by this person?  Who wrote them?  Where are the ones not originated by the subject?  A random pointer to Google's cache, that does not even work, is not a source citation.  Uncle G (talk) 12:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Dear Uncle G,
 * I disagree that proposing an editor -- knowledgeable of Albania, Kosovo and the Esperanto movement and with a working knowledge of Albanian and Esperanto -- amounts to 'accusing anyone of incompetence'. This is a good practice that prevents hasty decisions, which may be wrong.
 * On the other hand, just 30 minutes between the proposal that an article should be improved and how, on the one hand, and the move to delete it, on the other amounts to creating a hostile environment. Such an environment is not conducive to collaboration or any improvements on an article in question.
 * Dear All,
 * If the decision on this matter is not reached until tomorrow (Thur, Aug 22, 2019), I propose to postpone it until after Sept 9, 2019. Basically during this period I will be absent from my desk on a vacation with my family.
 * Sincerely, Hyrdlak (talk) 15:35, 21 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak


 * Dear All,


 * Regarding the references, yesterday (Aug 21, 2019) I provided many more. Obviously, some -- especially regarding his family history -- were authored by Bardhyl Selimi. It is only natural that a person's autobiographical writings may serve to establish the details regarding her/his family.


 * But, the notability of a personality does not depend on their family history, but their own achievements. (Although, so little is known outside Albania about everyday life in communist Albanian, that these bits of information may also be of a broader historical and sociological interest). B Selimi wrote and edited two books regarding modern Albanian-Kosovan history. His two highly popular textbooks of mathematics rekindled a widespread interest in this important field of knowledge both in Kosovo and Albania.


 * Apart from that, B Selimi singlehandedly restarted the Esperanto movement in postcommunist Albania.Infamously, in the Third Reich and the communist countries of the Stalinist type, Esperantists were imprisoned and sentenced to death, the use of Esperanto was banned. In Albania, as well, and longer than anywhere else, because until 1992. B Selimi wrote two handbooks of Esperanto for Albanian-speakers. He also strongly contributed to the development of the global Esperantist culture by translating the works of leading Albanian writers and poets into Esperanto, yielding almost 20 volumes and counting. On top of that he authored over 600 articles for the world's leading Esperanto monthly, Monato. Esperanto culture is unusual in this that it does not have any speech community of native speakers attached to it. Hence, many more books are translated into Esperanto than originally authored in this language. However, the influence of such translations is felt all around the world, given that Esperantists are active in practically every country on the globe.


 * B Selimi's work for Esperanto culture was recognized with an Elstara Agadao. Comparatively speaking, it is like the Pulitzer Prize for the Esperanto movement.


 * On top of that B Selimi also translated some literature and historical works from the Esperanto into Albanian, importantly adding to the development of culture in Albania and Kosovo, until recently the two poorest states in Europe.


 * Some say that translating literary works is not a sign of notability. What then about Wikipedia's articles about such translators as Jay Rubin, Philip Gabriel, or Alfred Birnbaum? Are they considered to be sufficiently notable on account of being US citizens and translating Japanese literature? Is Albanian literature somehow worth less than its Japanese counterpart, or translations into Esperanto may be deemed worth less than translations into English?


 * I see here some myopia of judgement at best, or double standards at worst.


 * Sincerely, Hyrdlak (talk) 10:09, 22 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak


 * PS. Somehow it escapes Wikipedia editors' attention that the article on Philip Gabriel is supported by a single reference only, and that actually it is a dead link. Furthermore, the bulk of this article (paragraph 2) is not supported by any reference. It hinges solely on internal links to other Wikipedia articles. I see similar problems with the article on Jay Rubin, supported just with 2 references. One of them is dead, and the other is autobiographical in its character, being an interview with the translator.


 * Hence, if the perceived failures of the article on B Selimi are so great that merit its deletion, I propose that before deleting it, first of all you should consider deleting the aforementioned articles on Philip Gabriel and Jay Rubin.Hyrdlak (talk) 10:29, 22 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak
 * No notability rests on some having noted you, please read wp:n.Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Indeed, due weight is a guideline (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Due_and_undue_weight) in this respect. What about Philip Gabriel and Jay Rubin?
 * As I informed yesterday, today I am off to my vacation. Will be back to the desk on September 9, 2019. I request a delay in any final decisions until then.

Hyrdlak (talk) 11:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak
 * This AFD is not about them so any argument to ut ratio is irrelevant. We base each article only and solely on its own merits.Slatersteven (talk) 11:57, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 01:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
 * There's a lot of IDHT going on here. To repeat what others have said, it is not what Selimi has done that establishes notability, but how much reliable sources have taken note of those achievements.  Rather than writing walls of text on the Selimi's achievements, it would be really helpful if the author could point to just a couple of sources that they consider to be both reliable and have substantial coverage of Selimi.  I will do my own analysis of the sources, but right now I am at delete based on what has been written in this discussion.
 * I also have to comment on the issue of competence. You cannot demand that only editors competent in the subject should decide.  Wikipedia doesn't work that way.  It is the encyclopaedia that anyone can edit, and by extension, anyone can take part in discussions and decisions.  It is for those who would defend the article to make an argument for keeping that is convincing to editors who are not subject matter experts.  And to do it now, not after you come back off holiday – it's unlikely this will be held open that long. SpinningSpark 17:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. I have not analysed all the sources, but the ones below represent about half the citations in the article and I'm not inclined to give it any more effort. It's reasonable to expect something significant early in the article, but that is not the case here.  The only source that seems to be worth anything for GNG is the Issuu article, and even that is uncertain.  Even accepting it on good faith, that alone is not enough.  If someone wants to suggest specific sources that are worth looking at, I'll reconsider, but I'm not doing any more research.


 * Thank you all for the discussion and analysis. I learned a lot about the procedures that guide editing in Wikipedia. However, I still disagree with the understanding of notability as basically meaning 'noted by the world,' that is, in the sense of anglophone or online sources. Esperantists do not have a country or a territorially delineated speech community. But the reach of Esperanto-based culture is worldwide. It is not immediately visible to people who do not know Esperanto and do not read Esperanto publications. For better or worse these publications are printed on paper or are behind the paywall, hence not readily available online. Elstara Agadao is not 'just a university distinction,' but the most important distinction granted within the Esperanto language community. Selimi's Esperanto translations of the best modern Albanian-language literature makes it available to readers around the world. Hence, the global notability of his work among Esperanto-speakers is permanent and going to last. Furthermore, it often leads to further translations from Esperanto to Korean, Japanese or Hebrew. This helps to popularize little literatures in relatively unknown languages such as Albanian. Should you wish, I can dig up Esperanto-language reviews of Selimi's translations to support this claim. Obviously, such references will lead to printed sources. However, if you think that in line of the policies it would not add to much, I will not bother. PS. I will be available for more discussion (if needed) after Sept 7, 2019.Hyrdlak (talk) 14:07, 2 September 2019 (UTC)Hyrdlak
 * If you want to change the Wikipedia policy on notability you are in the wrong place. That would be done at a policy discussion venue, but would be an exceedingly difficult thing to do.  In the meantime, no one is going to care that you disagree with it.  However, you have a very poor grasp of what the notability policy actually is.  We do not reject non-English sources or offline sources.  Nor do we reject sources behind paywalls or printed sources.  But to support notability they must be independent, reliable and have significant coverage. SpinningSpark 17:00, 2 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.