Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Barns of Ayr


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Sarahj2107 (talk) 10:39, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Barns of Ayr

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Unhistorical incident. PatGallacher (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Tending to Delete - perhaps unhistorical is a little harsh, but the Canmore source (1 in the article) makes clear the original report is from an unreliable source. The event may or may not have occurred, and the location is at best imprecise, with nothing now to see. The notability of this place or incident seems therefore very doubtful. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep The topic is notable as it has been investigated and written about in detail repeatedly - see The Burning of the Barns of Ayr, for example. If the Wallace incident there is apocryphal or mythological is not relevant to the issue of notability.  The tale of Tam o' Shanter is also set in Ayr and, whatever the truth of the matter, is also notable because of its similar prominence. Andrew D. (talk) 00:59, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep I dare say Blind Harry isn't too reliable, and Walter Scott neither, but if they both wrote about the event and a grandiose tower was built to commemorate it I think it counts as notable, if legendary. No end of sources. Thincat (talk) 12:23, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Reply What grandiose tower was build to commemorate it? Did Scott write about it?  We're having some difficulty deleting fictional or legendary material on Wikipedia, with people repeating Blind Harry uncritically.  We don't have an article on the fictional Battle of Loudoun Hill fought by William Wallace, even though enthusiasts erected a monument there. PatGallacher (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't want to go near whether this stuff is fictional or not. WP covers notable fiction. Wallace's Monument, Ayrshire (see Barnweil at http://wallace.scran.ac.uk/trail/ ). And Scott wrote about it in Tales of a Grandfather, I chapter 7, page 82. Thincat (talk) 20:03, 28 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that soemthing is legendary or even fictional is not a reason for deletion. However, if there is doubt about whether it happened, the article should express that.  Peterkingiron (talk) 14:02, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep but rewrite The available references show that this should be regarded as a notable incident - but one whose historicity is doubtful. The article should therefore definitely not be treating it as straightforwardly historical. The best approach would probably be to use available sources to summarise the incident as related by Blind Harry in The Wallace, mention significant later accounts (such as Scott's) and accretions (such as the one that led to the siting of Wallace's Monument), and discuss the various views about its historicity. PWilkinson (talk) 23:55, 30 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Scotland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Merge to Ayr I'm not impressed with the sources but I won't claim the subject is ahistorical. Rather than keep this stub, merge to the article about Ayr and let it be developed there. Chris Troutman  ( talk ) 23:01, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SpinningSpark 23:04, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep or Merge somewhere. Even if not historically accurate, the story does has had significant coverage in a variety of sources. If it is solely based on Blind Harry's account, then it may be best to merge it with the article on his poem, The Wallace (poem). --Vclaw (talk) 13:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep (but amend) -- The fact that RCAHMS has a page on the subject (attempting to locate the site) should be enough to justify keeping the article. Whether the events described in the Wallace poem actually happened is a different question; and one that is essentially insoluble.  Wallace was an important figure in Scottish history.  If there is a need for sceptism as to whether the events described happened, the appropriate course of action is to build that into the text of the article.  I assume that Blnd Harry, the author was a minstrel.  He may have preserved an oral tradition, passed down from an earlier minstrel.  I do not think it is possibly there were as few as two such oral transmissions (but that is my POV).  The fact that the subject has been under discussion for hundreds of years is itslef sufficient to merit the article being kept.  Peterkingiron (talk) 13:59, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.