Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Baronetcy of Srebrenica


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete by WP:SNOW as doubtful, not notable, and/or can not be verified. Bearian (talk) 17:25, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Baronetcy of Srebrenica
– (View AfD)

Appears to be a hoax. PhilKnight (talk) 09:54, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Note for closing admin: Sockpuppetry confirmed per User:Thatcher TRAVELLINGCARI My storyTell me yours 03:21, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Suspected sock puppets/DrHollisCollier
 * Requests for checkuser/Case/TylerDurden1963 TRAVELLINGCARI My storyTell me yours 16:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This is not a hoax, please do not delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrHollisCollier (talk • contribs) 10:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * How do I go about stopping this process? — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrHollisCollier (talk • contribs) 11:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * You can't stop the process. You have to wait for the outcome of the discussion here. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - can't find any evidence to back this up on Google. Cordless Larry (talk) 10:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's because you're not looking in Croatian.User:TylerDurden1963 10:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Obzor spomen-knjiga 1860-1935 by Milivoj Dezman; Rudolf Maixner
 * Politicka povijest Hrvatske by Josip Horvat contain details. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TylerDurden1963 (talk • contribs) 10:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * And, apologies for forgetting: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=8dv9gi8InPkC&dq=history+of+croatia+book&ei=MIIESICXFobCyQTG9cnRBg —Preceding unsigned comment added by TylerDurden1963 (talk • contribs) 10:24, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have form on saving articles from over-zealous administration: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Tony_Vinson —Preceding unsigned comment added by TylerDurden1963 (talk • contribs) 10:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - My problems with article are: There is no evidence on google, name of the artist because I only see name of Thomas Mertz which is special effects coordinator in movie A Very Brady Sequel  and we are having link to Srebrenica ????? I know croatian and serbian so you can show me link which will confirm article statements. --Rjecina (talk) 10:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have tried to add something useful - I know only this German reference to the title. I believe it has fallen from general use. - http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/8964


 * Keep - This is notable, and has clear references to it in the text. To non-Croatian speakers, maybe these seem confusing? Thomasthesnail (talk) 16:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * It does have references, but the point is that they don't actually back up what is said in the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep Thomas mertz is perhaps a different spelling? ThalloczyŠufflay (talk) 10:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm on it, but I think you'd be wrong to delete this article. I'm chasing up the Mertz issue. TylerDurden1963 (talk) 10:50, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - Thank you, I will try to help ThalloczyŠufflay (talk) 10:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Do you really want to be blocked from editing wikipedia ? 2 SPA accounts created in less of 2 hours with only aim to create or support "article" Baronetcy of Srebrenica--Rjecina (talk) 11:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Stop bullying the guy, he's new. Wikipedia has far too much of this. Act in haste, repent at leisure TylerDurden1963 (talk) 11:08, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep --> sorry! please keep -I am new, but please do not delete the article - I will get it up to scratch, I am not sure if I can do it by the end of the day, but soon. It is exciting to have found something wikipedia lacked. My research assistant is the computer expert, I will ask him to assist DrHollisCollier (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Thalloczy is my assistant. DrHollisCollier (talk) 11:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - The content is bizarre. None of the 2 sources mention it, even in passing; nor does the one reference. The description "It was bounded on the north by the Duchy of Carinthia, on the north-east by the Duchy of Styria, on the south-east and south by Kingdom of Croatia and Slavonia, and on the west by the County of Gorizia and Gradisca and Istria" is copied&pasted from Duchy of Carniola, which is about 400km from Srebrenica. The lead states that two Baronetcies were created in the Habsburg Empire, but doesn't mention the other one. And now we have people adding Ein Bruderzwist... which is a play set two hundred years before the Duchy of Carniola, and written 1 year before that Duchy was created, and yet its supposed to be a satire of the Baronetcy? And the baronetcy created by Thomas Mertz, when the article claimed it existed when the Empire did? Come on. Smelling very like a hoax to me. Bazzargh (talk) 11:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep - needs further investigation - This is clearly a novice approach to writing an article, but I think I can help get it up to scratch. I'm not sure you can read books in Croatian by googling for them. Clearly the template has been used, and there may be some argument over the satire point, but this isn't a hoax, just an article with a history problem to be resolved. An interesting puzzle, I think TylerDurden1963 (talk) 11:15, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Baron is a difficult word in Croatian - it means something a little different, I mean it's the same, but not what you would say. Prettyblondegirl (talk) 17:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete, and it's smelling like socks around here. There is no evidence this ever existed other than some hand-waving. Sources such as this that are claimed to reference it do not. It is passingly unlikely that the Hapsburgs would have adopted the British aristocratic title of baronet; Germanic titles tended to be in German, for one thing (prinz, graf). The rank equivalent would have been Edler. --Dhartung | Talk 12:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep Barunija Srebrenica in Croat. Baron is just a translation. TylerDurden1963 (talk) 12:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: There are no Google results for "Barunija Srebrenica" either. And also, please don't vote twice in the same discussion. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: 1: there are variant spellings. 2: Google is *not* definitive. TylerDurden1963 (talk) 12:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I realise that Google is not definitive, but it is a guide to notability. This and the unanswered questions raised by Bazzargh above make this sound very much like a hoax. I might be wrong, but it's better to have no article than one based on false information. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment --> Analysis:the play is "set two hundred years" before the creation - and accordingly this must mean it's invalid? People *have* written historical plays before to satirise. This 'better to err on the side of trusting my google search results' approach to history is bizarre, rather than an article about a necessarily obscure subject. TylerDurden1963 (talk) 12:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It's better to rely on references, but they certainly don't have to be from Google. The point is that at the moment, none of the references used in the article support the claims that they appear next to. I notice that you're now adding the claim that Jurij Vega is linked to the Baronetcy of Srebrenica to lots of articles, again without any references. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm also suspicious about Image:Srebrenitzacoat.JPG. It looks very much like a home-made modification of Image:Coat of arms of Croatia.svg. If TylerDurden1963 can't provide a source for it, I'll nominate it for deletion as well. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I am becoming really tired of this hoax. In my thinking we need checkuser for all 3 accounts which has created this hoax. This is without question hoax because of this historical data:
 * If we believe words about borders we will see that there is no difference between borders of this "baronetcy" and Duchy of Carniola (map of Austro-Hungary regions)
 * Kingdom of Illyria has been abolished and baronetcy has been created in 1849, but "courtesy title once held by Jurij Vega" (which has died in 1802) ? How is possible this if he has died in 1802 and baronetcy is created in 1849 ?
 * It is more interesting to read comments how baron of this baronetcy has been Franz Freiherr von der Trenck (baron Trenck) which has died in 1749 ????
 * To end I must say something about Croatian baronetcy in Slovenian borders and with name of Bosnian town which has been Ottoman territory until 1908. This is not possible !!
 * My thinking is that accounts TylerDurden1963, ThalloczyŠufflay and DrHollisCollier need to be blocked because they have created this hoax.--Rjecina (talk) 13:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. Nothing to prove this is not a hoax. See comment by Bazzargh. Take a look at Image:Srebrenitzacoat.JPG too. --Eleassar my talk 13:09, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - please keep I do not understand! Where are your sources for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Illyria or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_and_Slavonia ?? You are wholly self-referencing, and yet expect me to link to things on Google at the top of my hat? DrHollisCollier (talk) 13:14, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete . Title of baronet was not in Austrian Empire (or anywhere outside Commonwealth). Arms are bogus. Behavior of supporters is bogus (sockpuppets, double voting). And definitely not notable. Yopie 13:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)


 * Comment --> Correction Title clearly used in Croatia: http://www.croatianhistory.net/etf/cravate.html Get your facts straight. DrHollisCollier (talk) 13:26, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * in link is nothing about "baronetcy". Yopie 13:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment --> Correction This is an accurate representation. Whilst the coat of arms does not any longer exist, this picture does accurately reflect the Heraldry and patterns of the arms as described in academic texts. ( Borislav Arapovic, Hrvatski mirospis 1778, Matica hrvatska, Mostar, 1999, ISBN 9958-9448-2-0 ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DrHollisCollier (talk • contribs) 13:30, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * nonsense, "the crown" is only from 1990 and cannot be cited in book from 1778. Please, don't waste our time. Yopie 13:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * What you are saying makes no sense. "The oldest source confirming the coat as an official symbol is a genealogy of the Habsburgs, dated from 1512 to 1518. In 1525 it was used on a votive medal." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Croatia Please do not confuse me for someone who does not know these things. You are wasting your own time by harassing me, when you would do well to let me contribute. I did not know that people on Wikipedia were so ferocious - how do I prove to you my scholarly research? DrHollisCollier (talk) 13:46, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment --> Satisfied? I will prove this to you with the only thing you trust - Wikipedia. Your own pages already contain this information, and yet you question me? DrHollisCollier (talk) 13:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * NO, because "crown" over arms was from 1990. "Sahovnica" is very old, but crown is new. Yopie 13:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talk • contribs)
 * You are correct my friend, I'm sorry if I did not give you credit. The details of the crest are good enough, but you are right - I did not notice that! How quickly we forget these changes when we are looking for other details. Perhaps our asscociate the uploader would be so kind as to amend the picture? DrHollisCollier (talk) 14:05, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment --> Notability One of your dear associates has sent me information on your policies - I am still learning! Notability does not seem to be an issue here, I find, considering:
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_and_Slavonia
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istria
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ljudevit_Gaj
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Movement
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Gorizia_and_Gradisca
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Styria
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Illyria
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Carinthia


 * and 'so on'. Friends, you require better proof, and when my associate Thalloczy returns, we will get it and scan it in. The archives are not all electronic as yours may well be! It is past four here, so you must understand that this may have to wait until tomorrow! Thank you for teaching me, though. I am learning how Wikipedia works, and I would like my research to be available on your resource DrHollisCollier (talk) 14:13, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - please keep I do not understand! Where are your sources for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Illyria or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_and_Slavonia ?? You are wholly self-referencing, and yet expect me to link to things on Google at the top of my hat? DrHollisCollier (talk) 14:47, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment --> HANG ON Give me time to learn the rules! I have the information, I am compiling it, please give me some time to upload electronically & reference. This page now has MORE references than most other pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrHollisCollier (talk • contribs) 15:19, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - I am going home for dinner, my associate Thalloczy did not, it seems, return. Friends, do not delete my scholarship until I have come back online tomorrow (the internet is not available to me in the evenings here). I will come back, and we will - as you say - 'clean up' this article. Dr Hollis (not my name, you realise, but I mean for us to all work together in a spirit of friendship) DrHollisCollier (talk) 14:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment AGAIN - This is a talk page, and yet Mr Larry keeps deleting what I write! He has deleted it AGAIN, thinking I was gone yet. I think he should be sanctioned. I HAVE NOT deleted what he has written here, though I disagree with it and have facts to prove so DrHollisCollier (talk) 15:00, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I haven't deleted your comments. I moved some to the bottom of the page and removed some duplicate text, but that was it. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:03, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * For some reason, DrHollisCollier keeps copy and pasting the entire contents of this page to Talk:Baronetcy of Srebrenica and when I remove them, accuses me of deleting his comments. Please continue the discussion here, DrHollisCollier, rather than copying it to other places. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:02, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete I searched Google, Ask.com, MSN Live Search, Lycos, Yahoo, Google Books, and A9 for "Baronetcy of Srebrenica". The only result was by Google's main search engine, and it was the link to the Wikipedia page we are debating. J.d ela noy gabs adds  15:18, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Croatia-related deletion discussions.   -- Fabrictramp (talk) 15:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete To start with, let's assume that "Baronet" was just a mistranslation. I see no evidence at all that the title Baronet was ever used in the area discussed--the references all seem to be to the word Baron, which is not identical. Our article on Baronet gives as an equivalent to Baronet "the Austrian and South German title of Edler von, but I don't see this in the sources either. So the question now becomes, whether there were Barons of Srebrenica. I still see no specific reference to any. DGG (talk) 16:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep There is clearly a dispute, and some of the details may be less than entirely accurate, but there is clearly a consensus that much of this information is correct. Barons of Srebrenica have appeared in the references given, I've seen them mentioned at least twice. The problem I have is with Jurij Vega - there's an article that needs looking at, for the total lack of references given. 11347TCroa (talk) 16:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Jurij Vega does need references, but at least it's possible to find sources that back up what is said in that article, whereas there appear to be none for this one. Cordless Larry (talk) 23:34, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete, and checkuser all around. Quite a few single purpose accounts seem to be voting. -- Irixman (t) (m) 18:36, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete. Google returns no results to vouch for this subject's notability.  vıd ıoman  19:43, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Note Sockpuppetry confirmed per User:Thatcher TRAVELLINGCARI My storyTell me yours 03:22, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * WP:SNOW, blatant hoax, socks. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.