Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Batman: Reborn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Consensus is that, with no coverage in reliable secondary sources, this article cannot be salvaged from its current state as a pure plot summary. I will happily userfy this on request if someone wishes to merge some of this plot summary to an appropriate place or places. ~ mazca  talk 11:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Batman: Reborn

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Right now, this article is causing three problems:

At best, the phrase "Batman: Reborn" relates to: Ideally:
 * 1) It is providing plot only dumping ground for multiple Batman related comic book series even though the stories presented in the series are not directly interconnected.
 * 2) What material is currently in the article is a repeat of information in the articles on the individual comic book series.
 * 3) It relies on a premise that is not supported by secondary sources - that the individual stories are all part of one larger, coherent arc or event.
 * 1) The story that runs through the first 3 issues of Batman and Robin, which is actually uses the phrase as a title. None of the stories from any of the other 7 or 8 listed series use the term in this way.
 * 2) A marketing element that DC Comics has included in the trade dress for the 8 or 9 series following Batman: Battle for the Cowl. This has not been mentioned beyond identifying "We're relaunching the character/title".
 * The redundant material from the articles on Batman and Robin, Batman, Red Robin, and Batman: Streets of Gotham can be deleted;
 * Any remaining, pertinent information can be merged into those 4 articles as well as Batman and Dick Grayson;
 * A note can be added about the trade dress to the Batman: Battle for the Cowl section;
 * The remainder of this article redirected to Batman and Robin (comic book); and
 * A Batman: Reborn (event) redirect be created and point to Batman: Battle for the Cowl#Preparation and aftermath. J Greb (talk) 22:41, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions.  —J Greb (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree but there is one problem Long Shadows takes place after the epilogue and before the Batman and Robin saga Batman: Reborn, so if we do keep the article I suggest we only keep these three storys and merge them into one plot artcle. On either the DC Wiki or Batman Wiki it says in the plot something like as Batman stops Penguin and Two-Face the Circus of Crime emerges we could do something like that but we don't have a good source.--Schmeater (talk) 01:08, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * If, and it's a mighty big "if", we go that route, it is going to need a rock solid citation that they are one protracted story arc. Just "As a reader, this reading order makes sense and I think these belong in the same article" is no where near enough. The DC and Batman wkia are not good sources for making that leap either. - J Greb (talk) 01:43, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well you technically just repeated what I just stated. --Schmeater (talk) 02:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Delete lacks assertion of notability by secondary sources. Basically one big plot synopsis, and Wikipedia's not meant to be an excuse for you to not buy your comics. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:47, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I usually just edit with my IP address but then I learned that users don't trust IP's so I decided to make an account, now I stick with Schmeater, he proves a strong point I mean if we told him to re-edit the anaconda page trust me he would just need some information to do it, you see Batman: Reborn is just a three issue miniseries. If I am correct we already have the plot moving forward in the Batman and Robin section, so if we are going to keep this article we shouldn't have the plot in two places I mean we would just be repeating ourselves if we put down in the Batman and Robin section For more information please see Batman: Reborn and then they see the same information, now an encyclopedia only repeats it's information when it needs to right now it doesn't.--Stinkysoxmon (talk) 16:41, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest, if B&R is around long enough to need the story arcs slivered off and the arcs are strong enough in references and need, then and article on the 3 issue story arc is warranted. General premise is to tray and keep articles together until there is a need and a logical split point. Yes, taking the story arcs out of an article on the a comic book is a logical split. But right now there is 0 need to do it. - J Greb (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

You see earlier Schmeater revealed that Batman: Reborn was just a banner and the story only ran through Batman and Robin, all that you are seeing about all those series being in Batman: Reborn is fan hype, which J Greb just stated is assumptions. So we have two points left:
 * Google has 122,000 results for "Batman reborn", but not all of it is about this comic book series. A lot of fan hype about this does exist though.  Does anyone know any comic book review sites that count as notable enough to use as a reference?   D r e a m Focus  19:21, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Fan hype is nice, but it isn't a reliable source for writing an article. Reviews that aren't just "This is the story" (read: plot summary) are good for fleshing out an article, but right now that article would be Batman and Robin. If/when that article gets too big, then splitting the story arc(s) out may be warranted. - J Greb (talk) 23:10, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

1)Which part's should stay.

2)Why was this article made.--Stinkysoxmon (talk) 01:22, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Now the part that should stay is already in Batman and Robin, this article was made because of all the fanhype going on. So if we combine those two we get this article was made because of FanHype and the only proper part is Batman and Robin's part. So we are already covering Batman: Reborn in Batman and Robin so why keep it in here.--Schmeater (talk) 01:16, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment While "Batman Reborn" probably doesn't refer to a story arc with a beginning, middle and end, it is a large scale event taking place in the fictional continuity. I think it's necessary to have an article with this title to inform on the effects on the comics: the series that have been cancelled, the series that have been initiated, and the effects on the characters. The event has seen the shifting of aliases and the introduction of new villains, new versions of the Batcave and Batmobile, new public attitude towards Batman, and an asylum-less Gotham amongst other significant changes. I think this information, as well as a basic summary of the event would be helpful. ArtistScientist (talk) 05:50, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Is there anything that can be cite in secondary sources to support that? Aside from fan spec and forum chatter?
 * The best I can see, and it isn't a secondary source, is "DC Comics put a trade dress banner on various issues for X months after the last issue of Batman: Battle for the Cowl shipped. These issues included: ". Which pretty much is what should be in the Aftermath section of BftC. - J Greb (talk) 11:23, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Batman: Battle for the Cowl, this seems to have emerged from a confusion between the Batman and Robin storyline (which is not especially notable in itself) and the trade dress (which merely marks those titles launched or relaunched following Battle for the Cowl). There has been no evidence provided that shows DC have some broader plan for this and nothing to show that it even exists as described in the article (which suggests it is a storyline which crosses over with all the other Batman Family titles). See discussion at Talk:Batman: Reborn. So in summary, it doesn't exist as described and refocusing it on one of the other actual existing definitions would lead to an article lacking notability. So it should be merged to Battle for the Cowl, which already deals with all this information. (Emperor (talk) 17:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC))
 * In case you guy's havn't noticed if this were an actual story arc IGN would have a page about it. --Schmeater (talk) 02:54, 19 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete, little more than a plot-only description. See WP:NOT. Stifle (talk) 10:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.