Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battalion 1944


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. The article's subject is found to be notable. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 22:02, 11 February 2016 (UTC)

Battalion 1944

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WP:GNG Non-notable dev, publisher, producer, it's just another kickstarter. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 07:54, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - This game is more than "just another kickstarter". It meets notability guidelines and has been covered by major industry analysts like IGN, Kotaku, GameSpot, and others. If it was "just another kickstarter", it wouldn't be closing in on 100k raised in under 24 hours. It has quickly developed a cult following and many people are looking for information on it across social media, and asking questions. I couldn't believe there wasn't yet an article on it. Idealist343 (talk) 07:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video games-related deletion discussions.   Musa Talk  ☻ 09:37, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - I understand the case against this game having its own article. The reason I created the article is because of the sheer response it has gotten across social media platforms and the amount of coverage it has received. All you have to do is look at the news coverage by using the hyperlink above and you will see what I mean. When someone wants to know what this game is all about, there should be a page on Wikipedia that can explain it to them. Idealist343 (talk) 21:35, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi Idealist343, that someone might want to know what this game is about is not a reason to keep an article. The fact that sources have reported on it are. --Soetermans. T / C 21:47, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, I understand that, I was just elaborating on the fact that Wikipedia's larger purpose is to provide reliable information on things. That was how I came to create the article, because I could not find said information already here. Idealist343 (talk) 21:53, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * As you can see, I think the article has a reason to stay, but are there more sources that can be added? --Soetermans. T / C 22:00, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * There are a ton of sources and coverage. It is just picking and choosing which to use at this point. I am at work at the moment, but I just added another source on my break. Idealist343 (talk) 22:03, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. The fact that the developer is not notable and that "it's just another kickstarter" shouldn't have to matter: notibility is proven by reliable sources. --Soetermans. T / C 21:46, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Obviously. But if the dev or programmer WAS notable, proving notability would be more or less trivial. A kickstarter is often WP:Crystal because the game isn't released, it's simply announced, and may be vaporware. Notability isn't temporary. The kickstarter itself would have to be notable. A lot of gaming press on the Internet produces an article for nearly every kickstarter that hits a reasonable amount of funding, but I'm not convinced that press quite meets WP:GNG, which is why I brought it to AfD. - super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat 22:08, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But are there not multitudes of articles for games, including many by independent developers that are made pre-release depending on the amount of press? Idealist343 (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Yep, there are. I was just unconvinced of this particular one's notability, given the sources and coverage. Also, pre-release isn't the same as a kickstarter, which are notorious for producing vaporware, even on well funded projects. If THAT becomes a story, so be it. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:16, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Superbeecat does have a point though, we have to keep WP:CRYSTAL in mind. I'll try to go over the sources. --Soetermans. T / C 22:18, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * My defense would be that there are precedents that had a lot less reliable sources and a lot less coverage than this. Tuesday morning, when people went to their favorite video game industry website, whether it be Kotaku, IGN, GameSpot, or what have you, they saw this game on the front page. Does that not make it inherently notable by definition? Idealist343 (talk) 22:21, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I also would go back to your original point. The sheer amount of reliable sources should be sufficient. Idealist343 (talk) 22:23, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * All fair points, except that a reliable source is only half the equation. To answer you question "Does that not make it inherently notable by definition?" No. Not at all. The coverage itself is also important. When you read the sources, they are basically repeating the announcement, and not really "covering" anything, because there is nothing to cover yet. WP:Crystal states in part "Until such time that more encyclopedic knowledge about the product can be verified, product announcements should be merged to a larger topic (such as an article about the creator(s), a series of products, or a previous product) if applicable. Speculation and rumor, even from reliable sources, are not appropriate encyclopedic content." (emphasis mine). Until there is anything tangible, the coverage of an announcement is just speculation, as far as I can see. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:26, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Remember Notability is not temporary. If this was vaporware and dissolved today, would it still warrant an article? If yes, then keep, if no, then don't keep. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:29, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * See you just said it though. It is half the equation. And that half it passes with flying colors. The other half is based on the assumption it may fail, which isn't likely considering it has almost reached its goal in just over 24 hours. I will stick by the fact that there are precedent video game articles that have had much less and based on much more rumor that have stayed. This game has plenty of reliable sources backing it up and as far as the other half of the equation, it could go either way, but we can better assume it will succeed than fail, but like I said, that should be irrelevant when taking into consideration the reliable sources reporting on it which will make people recognize (i.e. notablity) what it is. I stick by the fact that there has been many video game articles with much less kept. Idealist343 (talk) 22:39, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But that's not how wikipedia (or kickstarter) work. It's not an ASSUMPTION that it may fail, until it is released, it DEFINITELY may fail, as hundreds upon hundreds of fully funded kickstarters do. Sometimes devs take the money and run. Sometimes everyone buys strippers (this just happened). Sometimes they just never finish a project. This product is in Pre-Alpha. You said yourself "it could go either way" - this is a SPECIFIC violation of WP:CRYSTAL. If something can go either way, it is speculation, until it actually goes either way. Let me put it this way, if it DOES fail, would you advocate keeping the article? super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:48, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * But either way, it is still making an assumption. Here is what we know right now with no assumptions: This game has been announced by a team of developers. It is a game that IS being made and already nearing Alpha. It is covered by reliable sources (multitudes of them) and it is already almost across its threshold goal on Kickstarter. That is 10x more than many preceding articles based on announced video games have had, and they have been kept. Idealist343 (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That simply is not how Wikipedia works. PLEASE read WP:CRYSTAL. IF the outcome is unknown (HOWEVER PROBABLE) it is speculation. The number of sources for other articles is entirely irrelevant, see Other stuff exists. Every kickstarter known to man could have an article, and it still wouldn't have any bearing here. What you are advocating is a reversal of WP:CRYSTAL. It is an important policy. Not defenses to crystal: "But other articles..." "But it has made a lot of money and will probably exist..." "But the sources are good...". Notability cannot be temporary. That means that NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, whether the kickstarter goes as planned, or not, the topic has to be good. This is NOT speculation, this is the opposite of speculation. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  23:04, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * It also says to include it if it is almost certain to happen. This is almost certain to happen. Do you not concede that? It has almost reached its goal in 24 hours and is already nearing alpha. There has been much less allowed. Idealist343 (talk) 23:09, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * For video games specifically, there's WP:VG/RS. Gamerassault is not on there, I'd remove that one. Reliable sources like GamesRadar, VG247, VideoGamer.com and  HardcoreGamer did mention it. The last one specifically said "Bulkhead Interactive, a studio comprised of former AAA developers and modders", but their official website doesn't have any information. On Kickstarter the game is doing pretty good so far. I wouldn't call this "speculation and rumor", as the game was actually announced. Okay, all in all, with all those RS'es mentioning Battallion 1944, I still say keep. --Soetermans. T / C 22:34, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmmm. Isn't every game on Kickstarter "announced"? I do agree, there is probably more than trivial coverage here at this point... but I'm still having trouble with the permanence of Notability. Many hundreds (thousands?) of fully funded kickstarters never go on to produce products, despite coverage. How do we rationalize the litmus test of permanence (i.e. even if this is vaporware and disappears today, it's still a good article) with a product that may yet never come to be without violating wp:crystal? Is every piece of vaporware notable if the product announcement was covered? (I'm willing to listen if the answer is yes... maybe kickstarted vaporware IS notable if it had decent coverage...). super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:43, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Not every game on Kickstarter receives this amount of coverage, either. Idealist343 (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment - It is also worth nothing that this is not from some random studio that just popped up there first kickstarter campaign. This is a new studio, yes, but it is compromised of almost exclusively former AAA developers. Idealist343 (talk) 22:55, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That could be useful. Do any of these Devs have articles? super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  22:57, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * That is what I plan on researching as soon as I get home tonight. It is all I can do to contribute to this conversation right now on my tablet. I am at work. But yes I plan on trying to locate some tonight. Idealist343 (talk) 22:59, 3 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Here's an example for ya. One of the most spectacular kickstarter failures was Yogventures. It made over half a million (DOUBLE what it was asking). in 2012. It was cancelled in 2014, despite massive backing and being tied to the massively popular Yogscast. THAT game, even though it is often mentioned as one of the most spectacular failures in kickstarter history, has NO article. The relevant paragraph is on the Yogscast page. It had FAR, far, far, more coverage than Battalion. I'd probably fight to GET an article for the game, as the failure itself is probably more notable than the vaporware title. We are talking about a title that may or may not ever get released. I've said my piece on it. What I WOULD advocate for, is (as proscribed in WP:CRYSTAL) adding the info to any of the devs' articles, if they have one. I think it's just too soon for this. super &beta;&epsilon;&epsilon; cat  23:13, 3 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep as whether the game will be another failed Kickstarter project is not important. If reliable sources cared about the game and write articles about it, we should as well as it meets our notability guideline. Four/five sources are enough to show notability, and the article, in its current state, has enough content, which means it isn't really too soon. AdrianGamer (talk) 11:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep as passing WP:GNG with multiple reliable independent in-depth sources, namely WP:VG/RS. Not having notable developer or other associated companies/people has no impact on the notability of the topic itself if the sources support it. Whether the product is released or not similarly has no bearing on notability if the sources support it. It's a bit WP:TOOSOON and I would say merge for now due to content size, but there isn't a suitable target, so a stand-alone article would have to do. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 15:18, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - Coverage in reliable sources is WP:NOTNEWS level. It's the press release regurgitation of "this is a kickstarter project that exists" without any actual depth.  This is the same argument I put forward at Articles for deletion/Tabletop Simulator, which was drafted and recreated once notable. - hahnch e n 12:05, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * You say "without any actual depth" even though this article has a ton more depth than many articles left up in the past. Can you specifically tell me what it needs so that I can try and improve it to that level? Also, WP:NOTNEWS is talking about every little event surrounding a topic. There is no way this article isn't good enough for just a stub especially considering it is a fully funded game by AAA developers backed by a multitude of reliable sources. Idealist343 (talk) 13:55, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Every little event includes every time a game is announced. None of the coverage is in depth because they're just news articles, repeating what the developer has announced.  There are no previews, interviews, reviews, features on the game.  There are video game kickstarters running all the time, and lots of them get news coverage in IGN, Gamespot et al.  Right now, there's news stories for Invisigun Heroes, Consortium: The Tower, Knights and Bikes, and others.  The only difference is in popularity, not notability.  We regularly delete articles that are essentially product announcements as WP:TOOSOON, this article was created mere hours after the announcement. I'd say that was too soon. - hahnch e n 19:18, 9 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. As others have pointed out, there has been a litany of news articles about the game, and the relatively uncommon successfulness of the Kickstarter campaign is noteworthy as well. Joshua Garner (talk) 05:17, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak keep This is a particularly unpersuasive nomination statement in particular. The notability (or lack thereof) with regards to the principals behind Battalion 1944 is of no consequence to whether Battalion 1944 itself is notable. In my view, it passes WP:GNG, if not by a lot. Hallward's Ghost (Kevin) (My talkpage) 21:14, 11 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.