Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle On Broadway


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The coverage is certainly significant, so the question is whether the book is considered independent; it has not been satisfactorily answered. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 05:10, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Battle On Broadway

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WP:GNG requires If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list. "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content." WP:NRIVALRY states "Sports rivalries are not inherently notable." and defers to GNG.

The article is unsourced with only a single pseudo citation present and has been tagged as such with NOT since Aug 2018. The football series dates to 1881-1911. The men's basketball series dates to 1903-1912, which briefly resumed in 2011-2012. UW Dawgs (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete as nom, fails GNG policy. UW Dawgs (talk) 20:16, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kentucky-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete as it stands, fails WP:GNG. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:13, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete Non notable rivalry. The schools don't play in the same athletic division. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 22:02, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Would you be willing to take a fresh look at this in light of 09er's comments below? Cbl62 (talk) 20:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure it's notable. The article needs a lot of work, I'm not usually a huge fan but WP:TNT may apply. If we can have enough sources documenting an actual rivalry, rather than a series of games played by local teams, I could be persuaded to change my mind. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs )~ 15:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep It is probably one of the most well documented and researched rivalries of the early 20th century.  Anybody that says that Transylvania and UK were not a rivalry should read "Before Big Blue" by Gregory Ken Stanley.  The book is about the founding of the University of Kentucky's athletic teams.  The book goes into great detail about the rivalry for about 10 to 20 pages.   This rivalry was very intense, including in 1911 when it almost caused a riot in Lexington when the Transylvania students marched on UK campus dressed in nightshirts and caring clubs.     Other games include the 1903 (Ringer Game) substitution game scandal and several Thanksgiving Day games, where the gate receipt was so large it kept UK athletic department from going bankrupt.  When they started playing basketball again in 2011, there were articles about the rivalry written including this one from the Lexington Herald Ledger    Also, this is not just a cross-town rivalry but a sibling rivalry since Kentucky began as the A&M Extention of Transylvania.  09er (talk) 23:35, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * What's interesting though is that all of those sources are modern - I've just looked up the Courier-Journal article on the 1911 riot and while there's decent game coverage, most of the hits for "rivalry" were from two teams in Georgia. The name appears modern as well with no hits apart from a recent exhibition basketball match. SportingFlyer  T · C  23:53, 19 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The book has a very extensive bibliography of lots of newspaper articles from the time of the early games.09er (talk) 00:00, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have not seen it, but there was also a documentary film made on the rivalry. 09er (talk) 00:04, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I mean, it poses an interesting question: could something that was clearly contentious, but not really described as a rivalry at the time (there were a couple mentions I found, but I found more mentions of the Transylvania/Central rivalry) be considered one 100 years later? I expanded my search for "Battle on Broadway" and I can't find any sources at all which describes it as the "Battle on Broadway" until 2012 (the documentary, everything else is from 2018.) (Now, the Lexington newspaper doesn't appear to be on Newspapers.com, but I still don't think the rivalry itself to be notable.) SportingFlyer  T · C  01:17, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have done a lot of editing of coaches and players of the early years of college football. Searching the web to find information and sources about this era can be tough.  Sometimes it seems like nothing existed before the year 2000. Sometimes It feels like some of the well known all-American football players really didn't exist.    Sites like Newspaper.com have made it a lot easier, but it has a limited number of papers.   Looking at the list of footnotes the chapter in "Before Big Blue," where most of the information about the rivalry is, the author cites a lot on articles from the Lexington Herald.   One thing that may help your research may be the names of the schools.  During the majority of the early days, Transylvania was called Kentucky University, and the University of Kentucky was known as Kentucky State College.  I agree with you that "Battle On Broadway" is probably a new name since it is not called that in "Before Big Blue."  If the consensus is to keep, I am going try to update to a more acceptable level. 09er (talk) 02:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Do you think you could add some sourcing from the book, 09er? I find your argument compelling, but am concerned there are no in-line citations to support GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 12:20, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see that too. This really hinges as to what sources said about it at the time. SportingFlyer  T · C  17:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep this seems to be a rivalry from days gone by that is worth keeping. Notability cannot be "lost".--Paul McDonald (talk) 01:18, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per 09er's arguments. --Micky (talk) 01:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC) Blocked sockpuppet -Malcolmxl5 (talk) 04:47, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep . The fact that it is not a rivalry today, or that the schools now play in different divisions, is irrelevant as this article pertains to a historic rivalry that existed more than 100 years ago. Very few rivalries are historic enough to have a documentary film made about them. The documentary plus the "Before Big Blue" book (09er's assertions accepted in good faith) are sufficient to pass the WP:GNG bar. Cbl62 (talk) 20:48, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The documentary was a nine-minute short that was commissioned by Transylvania. It's not secondary for purposes of WP:GNG. SportingFlyer  T · C  17:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, SF. The lack of independence is obviously significant. Also, I watched most of it and it doesn't even mention football so far as I watched. Switching to neutral for now. If 09er can present some of the independent sourcing from "Before Big Blue" to satisfy WP:GNG, I'd be willing to restore my keep vote. Cbl62 (talk) 18:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the "Before Big Blue" book appears to be self-published by the University of Kentucky, so I'm not really sure that's an independent source for GNG purposes, either. As far as the article itself, see my comment from back in 2015 in a discussion about it. Everything I said there pretty much holds true today. Ejgreen77 (talk) 05:07, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Cheers. I'm convinced there's a place in the encyclopaedia somewhere for this, but I'm not yet convinced it merits its own article. However stuff like "Bad feeling has always existed to some extent between the two colleges" is helpful. SportingFlyer  T · C  18:54, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Tomorrow I am going to start updating the article and adding in-line citations from the book and a few other sources. It may take me a week or two since I am swamped right now.  09er (talk) 20:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

It probably makes sense to hold this AfD open for another week or so to allow 09er a bit more time to add the sources he mentioned above. Cbl62 (talk) 20:45, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I have updated and expanded the article with in-line citations. I have not done any work on the the basketball section. I will try to work on this section this coming  weekend.09er (talk) 01:00, 24 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The University Press of Kentucky is not part of the University of Kentucky. It is a "Scholarly publisher for the Commonwealth" See info page of the book.   It publishes a wide range of subjects related to the Commonwealth of Kentucky.  It is a non-profit organization paid for by the Clark Foundation.  See link  It does work with every significant University in Kentucky (nine public and five private) as well as several historical societies. The University of Louisville and Western Kentucky, etc. are part of the consortium.   Just like most university presses, an individual must submit academic research. If it meets its standards and mission, it could be published but not garateed. "Before Big Blue" was originally a dissertation for Ph.D.  So actual academic research, not self-promotion.   The Two chapters where most of the Rivalry information is found have 106 footnotes referring to lots of Newspapers (around 70 different articles), Meeting Minutes, Books and Reprorts)    09er (talk) 16:39, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Notability aside, that's about as dependent a page as I've seen on a single source in quite some time. I remain unsure whether this is better covered in season articles. SportingFlyer  T · C  23:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, '''The creeper2007 Talk! 22:10, 27 June 2020 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Bagumba (talk) 08:24, 7 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.