Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Adrianople (1365)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. I don't think there's consensus & not enough new people to the discussion are interested that it is likely to develop here. I recommend continuing the discussion on the article talk p. about whether this should be a separate article, and if so, what to name it.  DGG ( talk ) 06:40, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Battle of Adrianople (1365)

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Clearly a case of mistaken interpretation of the sources, see here Constantine  ✍  11:59, 22 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -  a boat   that can float!   (watch me float)  13:25, 22 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Non documented event.--Phso2 (talk) 14:31, 23 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KTC (talk) 00:25, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Keep Did some quick research, and it indeed looks like there was a battle there, fought by the Ottomomans, and they made the city their capital after the battle. Article needs work, but keep IMHO. I would be personally interested to know more about the event, so a page on it would be interesting to me ! Deathlibrarian (talk) 11:04, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Where exactly did you find that there was a battle in Adrianople in 1365? A "quick research" is not enough, the issue is rather complex. Please see the link to my talk page above on the sources and dating of the events on the Ottoman conquest of the city. The battle of 1365 is simply the Battle of Maritsa according to the Turkish sources' chronology. Constantine  ✍  11:33, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak delete After looking at the source quoted by the nominator on his user page, together with other material available online, I am led to the conclusion that the nominator has somewhat overstated his grounds for nomination. The nominator's source is (unless I am much mistaken) this master's thesis from Bilkent University (interestingly, by a student with a Greek name). While I realise that this has little to do with the nominator's conclusion that the Ottoman capture of Adrianople took place in about 1369 (and I am tentatively inclined to agree with this), I note with slight confusion that, while the section of the thesis quoted by the nominator seems to incline to a date of 1371 or even later for the capture, the rest of the thesis seems rather vague on dates for anything after 1359 and the chronology at the end of the thesis gives a date of 1361 for "Adrianople" (which seems to be the conventional date in Turkish and some other older historiography). But I would also note that the thesis (which is mainly about the topography of the Ottoman conquest of Thrace) mentions no fewer than three sites for battles near Adrianople between 1361 and 1371, each of which can be cited in at least some other sources (though not always the same ones) and each of which seems to be referred to as the Battle of Adrianople: Sazlıdere to the south-east of Adrianople (probably sometime between 1361 and 1363); somewhere near Sarayakpinar ) to the north of Adrianople (the Battle of Sırp Sındığı in about 1364); and Tzernomianon, modern Ormenio, to the west of Adrianople (the Battle of Maritsa in 1371). Of these, while three different battles in the same area within ten years seem by no means impossible, the only one that seems to be absolutely certain (and not possibly a result of confusion of primary sources) is the last one. And it is plausible, but not certain, that one or other of the three led to the Ottoman capture of Adrianople. Under the circumstances, it seems likely that the article is meant to be about (and thus a duplicate of) the Battle of Sırp Sındığı - but a redirect there is probably not sensible as it is by no means certain that this battle (which was probably not in 1365) resulted in the capture of Adrianople, and somewhat possible that the battle itself is a historical mirage caused by some Turkish chronicler misdating the Battle of Maritza. Finally, I would note that while in this case deletion is probably the least bad option, there will be a fair amount of cleanup to be done afterwards on other articles - this article has a number of inward links and at least some of them might lead to the recreation of something very close to the present article sometime in the future. PWilkinson (talk) 00:31, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep: per Deathlibrarian. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Users who vote "keep" should provide a source that claims there was a so called "Battle of Adrianople in 1365". How can we have an article about a battle which is not referenced anywhere? --Phso2 (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 23:39, 7 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment According to the article Edirne, the city was conquered by the Ottomans in 1365. I, however, remain neutral. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:11, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.