Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Divin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Battle of Dvin. &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 16:37, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Battle of Divin

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Empty article except for infobox, with no proper referencing; there is no place called Divin in the region in question except for Dvin, which in 1045 was held by Abu'l-Aswar Shavur ibn Fadl; he did indeed defeat the Byzantines in that year, but this has nothing to do with the Seljuks. It is widely recognized that the first encounter between Byz. and the Seljuks was at the Battle of Kapetron in 1048. Constantine  ✍  21:50, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 01:25, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. clpo13(talk) 01:25, 31 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment -- The article was only created 4 days ago, apparently as a translation from the Turkish WP. The conflict mentioned by Constantine may well be the basis of the article, which should perhaps be Dvin, not Divin.  However the correct version of the name may depend on how it should be transliterated.  Peterkingiron (talk) 19:06, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The Turkish article was created by the same user, and both the content and the sourcing there are laughable; the references are to books without page numbers, and the article is simply the description of the infobox content in text form. It is also a clear sign of something fishy going on when the "translated" article refers to different sources than the original, even though the author is the same in both cases, and that source (A Short History of the Middle Ages, Volume II) makes no mention at all to this supposed battle as far as I can see. IMO this is clear (and deliberate) WP:HOAX territory. Constantine  ✍  00:09, 1 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 16:11, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
 * You may be right in this case about the veracity of this article, but, in general, it's not only reasonable, but useful, for somebody who translates an article to seek sources in the destination language to replace the ones in the source language. —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
 * And I would agree if there was any meaningful content in the article. In this case, it reeks of disingenuousness. Constantine  ✍  21:29, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  16:38, 6 January 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  16:26, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete because I can't find anything to substantiate this and because I found this that suggests that a "battle of Dvin" is an invention from a community-written story. See the May 20, 2013, 02:53 PM entry, for example. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:50, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I glanced at the contents of that page and it appears to have nothing to do with what's written in the Turkish article, which seems to be based on legitimate academic sources. --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:58, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete - Unless a user agrees to expand. Page currently contains no valuable information. Meatsgains (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as currently not enough context for an article. SwisterTwister   talk  06:21, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. According to The Historical Dictionary of Armenia, "Shaddadid rule over Dvin did not go uncontested by competing Muslim tribes, and after their entry into Ani in 1045, the Byzantines also advanced upon Dvin but also failed to capture it." The Turkish page has sources and it's possible the best sources may be in Turkish. This should be tagged as needing the help of a translator, and also moved to Battle of Dvin. --Sammy1339 (talk) 19:49, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Have a look in the articles linked above, especially Abu'l-Aswar Shavur ibn Fadl (of which i am the principal author). Whatever sources there are have been used there, and there is nothing whatsoever even remotely similar to what the article proposes... The sources of the Turkish page are laughable, being without page references, and the "article" itself is even more so, merely rehashing the contents of the infobox. Constantine  ✍  20:45, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I reverted your removal of the sources - which I stole from your article above. Doesn't this describe the battle that this article is supposed to be about? Please correct me if I'm wrong. --Sammy1339 (talk) 20:56, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * No, and that is what my edit summary comment was about: don't edit something if you are not certain about it. The Byzantines clashed with Shavur in 1045 (for which there are no details enough for a stand-alone article), and with the Seljuks for the first time in 1048, and not in Dvin. Constantine  ✍  20:59, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I must be supremely confused. p. 122 of Ter-Ghewondyan says "... Iasites launched a great expedition against Dwin in which the magistros Constantine the Alan, the Armenian army under the command of Vahram Pahlawuni, and Liparit Orbelean all participated. Faced with this united force, Abu'l-Aswar had recourse to the stratagem of opening the irrigation canals and flooded the fertile vineyards stretching around the walls of Dwin. The attackers mired in the mud and falling under a hail of arrows from the walls were totally routed and both Vahram Pahlawuni and his son Gregory remained among the victims." This seems consistent with the contents of the Turkish article. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:05, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually I notice that Abu'l-Aswar Shavur ibn Fadl even has a painting of this event. If you're sure there are no more sources we should merge/redirect, but are you sure the source in the Turkish article is bunk? --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:20, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the "nothing whatsoever even remotely similar" comment I made above was excessive, but the point is the same: this article is bogus. Now, the source of the Turkish article is not bunk; I don't have access to it, but I can believe it is a relatively reliable academic source. The way it is used on the other hand arises suspicion, especially since it is conveniently without page numbers and has been dropped during the "translation" process to be replaced by an English source where this battle is not mentioned, all of which are indications of something fishy going on. In addition, it claims that the battle was between the Seljuks under Qutalmish, which is incorrect, and provides exact army numbers, which AFAIK are entirely fictitious. Hence the basic premise of the article ("18,000 Seljuks under Qutalmish defeat 25,000 Byzantines-Armenians-Georgians under Constantine IX Monomachos at D[i]vin") is wrong. There was a Byzantine battle near Dvin in 1045, which you've quoted above; it was not against Qutalmish or another Seljuk general, but against the Shaddadid Shavur; it did not feature Constantine IX Monomachos, but Constantine the Alan; there are no exact numbers for the troops involved; and it was far less of a battle and more of a failed attempt at siege. I stand by my belief that the aim of this article is to deliberately mislead/falsify the historical event (the source change and the invented numbers clinch the argument for me), and hence the proper response is to delete it per the spirit of WP:DENY. Whether an article or a redirect for the correct battle is to be created is another cup of tea. Constantine  ✍  21:38, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * It sounds like we should keep per WP:NEXIST but kill the infobox with the dubious claims and stubbify it. --Sammy1339 (talk) 22:09, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Respectfully, no. The "Battle of Divin" doesn't exist. The "Battle of Dvin" does, if we agree we should name it thus. If you want a stub for the latter fine, but why on earth should we keep the former? I understand you want to "fix" the problem, but in my view, the best thing is to purge the one and start afresh with the other. Constantine  ✍  22:14, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
 * I carried out the above program and moved the page. "Divin" is the Turkish word for Dvin, and apparently arose from a mistake in translation. This might make sense as a redirect, or the redirect can be deleted if you like. --Sammy1339 (talk) 22:36, 15 January 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.