Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Jüterbog


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   speedy keep per WP:SNOW. Bearian (talk) 21:07, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Battle of Jüterbog

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Non-notable battle. No mentions in Google Books other than Wikipedia reprints -- only event of this name is a different battle entirely. I initially thought it must be a hoax but it seems that one mention exists in a tertiary source. Holding Ray (talk) 16:17, 30 April 2011 (UTC) — Holding Ray (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Bad faith nomination The account has been blocked indefinitely as a sockpuppet account by a checkuser (see Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of A.K.Nole). The account was a disruption-only account and the AfD was made in bad faith. Mathsci (talk) 07:27, 1 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Frivolous request by probable sockpuppet, who seems set on disrupting wikipedia. This is one of a series of battles from the Thirty Years' War which together form a body. This article has existed for a long time (2006), is properly sourced and of the same length as many of the other battles in the war. There are much longer sources available in German, for example this one. Mathsci (talk) 16:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * ""has existed for a long time" = "an unsourced stub for over 5 years" and "is properly sourced" = "has had one, tertiary, citation". "of the same lengh as many of the other battles" = WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS.  I'm glad that Mathsci has found a  better source now though.  Holding Ray (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As stated below, there are several other references ("Juterbog" is sometimes spelt "Juterbok"). (Venice, Austria, and the Turks in the seventeenth century)  (Cambridge modern history)  (French armies of the the Thirty Years' War)  (The Harper encyclopedia of military biography) Mathsci (talk) 22:28, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Two battles were fought near Juterbog: one during the Thirty Years War and one during the Napoleonic Wars. English-language scholars may call either skirmish "the Battle of Juterbog" or "the Battle of Dennewitz", although I suspect the two are not confused in the same manner among German scholars. I've left a message at the military history wikiproject's talk page asking for help from more knowledgable users. I remain neutral at this time as I simply can't tell from the sources whether this battle was notable or not. --NellieBly (talk) 17:44, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. There are some references to this battle for 1644: here in English, for example, or in German here. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:05, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 17:58, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep The reason given shows a problem with relying simply on an article title when searching Google. Changing the search terms to Jüterbog + Torstensson (the Swedish general) gives several dozen hits in Google Books confirming that Torstensson fought the imperial forces there in 1644, in the early stages of the final major campaign the Thirty Years War. PWilkinson (talk) 18:06, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment - de:wiki has an article on the battle which includes from an 1842 book as a reference - which definately seems to indicate that the 1644 battle happened.Nigel Ish (talk) 18:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - Assume bad faith or joke nomination here. right?:).--BabbaQ (talk) 18:43, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I assume that unsourced for over 5 years and zero GBook hits for the article title raises a sufficient doubt over notability to bring it to the community. Right?  Holding Ray (talk) 20:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I assume the nominator is acting in perfect good faith, because the article really wasn't that well-sourced. However, I personally would not have taken this article to AFD as a first step. With an article about a 17th century European battle due diligence has to go further than a Google search, as sources might not be online or in English (no, not even in Google Books). Hence my contacting the Wikiproject, as editors there have access to far better resources than I would. But let's not pile on the nominator, okay? The nomination was not ridiculous from a layman's point of view. --NellieBly (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy keep. Let's not waste anymore time on this, the nominator was indef blocked as a sock. Nobody else recommends deletion. I agree that coverage of this is rather skimpy in sources (most of those in GB are in German), so perhaps a merger to some other article needs to be discussed. But no admin intervention (deletion) is needed here. Tijfo098 (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Nobody else has suggested a merge to any other article. The article was picked at random by a long-term sockpuppeteer to cover to his first disruptive and WP:POINTY edits elsewhere. It was a bad faith nomination. Apart from closing the AfD as keep, no other action seems necessary. Mathsci (talk) 12:59, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm suggesting it. Tijfo098 (talk) 13:23, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Presumably that kind of decision is best left to editors active in this area (seventeenth century military history). There are a series of other stubs on battles in the Thirty Years' War in a similar position: Battle of Prague (1648), Battle of Lomnice, Battle of Sablat, Battle of Mingolsheim, Battle of Wimpfen, Battle of Dessau Bridge, Battle of Lutter, Battle of Werben, Battle of Wiesloch (1632), Battle of the Alte Veste, Battle of Wittstock, Battle of Breisach, Battle of Chemnitz, Battle of Honnecourt, Battle of Breitenfeld (1642), Siege of Hulst, and Battle of Zusmarshausen. If one, some or all of these stubs has to be merged into Thirty Years' War, that should be decided systematically by editors acitively involved in editing seventeenth century European military history, not here. It should not be done on a whim as a consequence of disruptive edits of one ban-evading sockpuppeteer. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 14:10, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Like said in my "speedy keep", this AfD should be closed. The content clearly doesn't need deletion, but a merger may be a good solution. I started a discussion on Talk:Thirty Years' War. I'll add the list of the other stubs you found to discussion there. Tijfo098 (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Your suggestion of a merge cannot be discussed here. The TYW is a large topic, which I presume is why these stubs exist, since that kind of detail on short battles in a lengthy war cannot be covered in the master article. But that surely is a topic for WikiProject Military History, not here. The problem has presumably been discussed at length for wars of long duration; and there is no shortage of editors who specialize in MilHist. Best to leave it up to them to decide, particularly if they have better access to specialized sources. Mathsci (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.