Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Kelmendi (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. I don't think further relistings would result in a clearer outcome between those editors arguing to Keep and those advocating to Delete. This is not a comment on the article content, sources or page title which can be discussed on the article talk page. It also does not preclude future trips to AFD but I would advise waiting several months before nominating this article again or it could result in a procedural close. Liz Read! Talk! 01:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Battle of Kelmendi
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

A search on google books bring zero results for a Battle of Kelmendi article is an orphan, none of the sources mention a significant battle but clashes that took place between 1624 and 1638 (already mentioned on the Kelmendi article). Fails WP:N(E) No historical significance & no sufficient sourcing for a standalone article. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 14:15, 14 September 2023 (UTC) edited Wafflesvarrg (talk) 11:13, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History, Military, Events, Turkey, and Albania. UtherSRG (talk) 15:08, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. Sources used in the article:
 * 1) 1 1685 treatise WP:OLDSOURCES seemingly unrelated quote ❌
 * 2) 2 1866 book WP:OLDSOURCES Does not mention a “Battle of Kelmendi” but various clashes taking place between 1624 and 1638. ❌
 * 3) 3 1722 book, WP:OLDSOURCES + does not mention a specific “Battle of Kelmendi” ❌
 * 4) 4 website article using the same old sources to illustrate folktale ❌
 * Primary sources do mention this event, but I don't think that it ever acquired a distinctive name in historiography: Winnifrith 2021.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:22, 15 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Maleschreiber There is no denial that clashes between Ottoman troops and the Kelmendi took place between 1624 and 1638, both Malcolm and Elsie mention them, but neither of them bring up a 1638 battle of Kelmendi. Elsie in the Tribes of Albania writes: "In the following decades, (after 1624) the Turks made numerous efforts to subject the Kelmendi, but with no decisive result"; Winnifrith says: "In 1638 Turkish forces had taken the field against this tribe to punish them for brigandage" while Malcolm 2020 just says: "in 1638 the local inhabitants of Novi Pazar and northern Kosovo sent a petition to the Sultan, pleading for action to be taken to defend them from the raids of the Kelmendi". If a significant battle did take place WP:SIGCOV from contemporary sources would exist which would warrant a standalone article, otherwise Ottoman-Kelmendi clashes can be sufficiently described in the Kelmendi (tribe) article. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 13:04, 16 September 2023 (UTC) edited Wafflesvarrg (talk) 16:08, 17 September 2023 (UTC) edited Wafflesvarrg (talk) 19:34, 17 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There does appear to be at least one contemporary report of the campaign, by Frang Bardhi (1606-1643), reprinted at with some commentary credited to Robert Elsie.  It is cited in the Kelmendi (tribe) article, with other sources.   RecycledPixels (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @RecycledPixels Yes you are right, I added that content to the Kelmendi article, it also includes Elsie’s commentary/warning that this 1638 document was a “somewhat glorified text” about the Kelmendi tribe under attack, which may explain why he chose to repost it on his personal website and not use it in his reference book The Tribes of Albania (Kelmendi Tribe chapter pp. 15–36). I also added two more sources (Ernest Lavisse and François Lenormant) mentioning that same punitive expedition sent against the tribe (short/trivial mentions) both relate a completely different outcome which also casts doubt on the accuracy of that 1638 document. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 08:17, 20 September 2023 (UTC) edited Wafflesvarrg (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * In light of that, I don't understand why you're nominating the topic for deletion with the reason that there are no sources that refer to the campaign as a more than small clashes (a term that I'd define as opportunistic and somewhat unplanned skirmishes between forces, but you may be using with a different meaning), and that there aren't any sources that support a standalone article. You've just identified several, and I pointed at one (that you had provided) that clearly indicated that it was a significant, well-planned campaign with a large buildup.   Perhaps the title can be improved.  RecycledPixels (talk) 18:20, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Because I researched the topic first and found no battle of Kelmendi, the closest thing I could find in 1638 involving the Kelmendi was a punitive raid which is not addressed by WP:SIGCOV, directly and in detail. The one source that you mentioned is an WP:OLDSOURCES which does not seem to be WP:RELIABLE (see previous comment), and is not backed up by any contemporary source. Albanologist Robert Elsie’s history of the Kelmendi makes no mention of it (you can actually read the whole chapter here); neither does Malcolm (see first comment). The French sources that I found say that in 1638 the Kelmendi chiefs got their head cut off (!) following a punitive raid. This is hardly enough for a standalone article that's why it was added to the Kelmendi (tribe) article. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 19:36, 20 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Delete: Based on the analysis of the sources, this fails WP:NEVENT and WP:GNG. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:44, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom.2.48.60.9 (talk) 14:16, 18 September 2023 (UTC)
 * do you have a registered username? Wafflesvarrg (talk) 08:30, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2023 September 19.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 03:03, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete As per nom. Seems to be an improper WP:SYNTH of various incidents. --Griboski (talk) 20:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep I searched for sources and this was in fact a campaign which is described in detail and at length by several primary sources (1638 Frang Bardhi:The Pasha of Bosnia attacks Kelmendi). I have started expansion of the article. The topic is legitimately notable and it can be expanded into a very detailed article. It should be renamed to Kelmendi campaign (1638)--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:51, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Maleschreiber Bardhi has been discussed previously, it is a single OLD source posted on Elsie’s personal website with a warning and contradicted somewhere else, it seems to be more documentary-archival material than reliable description of an event; I doubt it is a RS but this can of course be discussed… nevertheless more than one source is needed to show NOT so please share your research and where you have seen a 1638 Kelmendi campaign “described in detail and at length by several primary sources” Thank you. Wafflesvarrg (talk)


 * Keep I am in agreeance with @Maleschreiber that the article should be renamed as opposed to deleted. There is indeed primary source material and even some secondary source literature describing this specific campaign. Aside from Bardhi's report mentioned above and in the article itself, there is also a report by the Ottoman historian Mustafa Naima who presents the campaign in a very different light and, perhaps, more detailed manner than Bardhi - thus adding nuance to the topic. Naima's report is also discussed by the Albanian historian Selami Pulaha who critiques Naima's clear bias in portraying the campaign as an Ottoman victory. In short, if renamed and expanded appropriately, the article does have potential. :Lezhjani1444 (talk) 22:40, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @Lezhjani1444 That sounds interesting, regarding Naima/Ottoman and other sources, can you please also share? as long as they are reliable since WP:AGE MATTERS and address the topic directly and in detail to pass GNG, it would be good to see new material. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Naima's historical account is published in Selami Pulaha's Qëndresa e popullit shqiptar kundër sundimit osman nga shekulli XVI deri në fillim të shekullit XVIII: dokumente osmane (1978). Pulaha also includes a commentary and critique of Naima's account, describing it as a biased source which was written to portray Vučo Pasha's campaign as a success, when in reality (as Bardhi mentions) the Ottoman army under Vučo Pasha was forced to retreat from Kelmendi due to heavy losses and a lack of supplies. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 17:01, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * There is also a more recent paper (2017) by Luan Tetaj on this campaign titled: "Kryengritjet e Kelmendaseve në shekullin XVII". Lezhjani1444 (talk) 18:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * First of all thank you @Lezhjani1444 for actually doing research this is really helpful to the discussion; from what you sent, the only one accessible one is "Kryengritjet e Kelmendaseve në shekullin XVII" but that looks like a simple mention, (please correct me if wrong): Sultan Murad IV, fearing an unexpected situation, in 1638 ordered Vuço Pasa the Beylerbey of Bosnia to gather an army from Hercegovina, Albania and Serbia to start military expedition as soon as possible in order to press the main center of the movement, namely Malësia e Madhe. However, even this time, as many times before, ottoman attempts failed this is good for the Kelmendi article mentioning the campaign but not enough to warrant a stand alone article. Is there anything else that addresses the topic directly and in detail? Wafflesvarrg (talk) 13:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * No problem, glad to help. Tetaj does write more about the campaign and seems to agree more so with Bardhi's account, although he does include information which from Naima. I have translated it and will include below, although apologies if my translation seems clunky and a little incoherent at times, I'm not accustomed to translating entire paragraphs of Albanian, however, this should give a general idea hopefully:
 * Lezhjani1444 (talk) 21:50, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Lezhjani1444 for the quotation and transcription, we are definitely making progress as this source contains details that corroborate Bardhi. Could you provide the full details please, the full reference with the page..etc if Naima wrote this and when. Since we also have two conflicting accounts, could you tell us more about Pulaha’s commentary and critique of Naima's account? The more details we have the closer we get to SIGCOV. Once established I would suggest a rename and move this conversation to the new TP. You do not need to translate by hand, you can take a screenshot and upload as an image to google translate for instant translation. Thanks again. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 14:27, 25 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Above is my translation of pages 85-7 from Luan Tetaj's paper "Kryengritjet e Kelmendaseve në shekullin XVII" (2017) discussing the campaign of 1638. As for Naima's historical account of the campaign, I am not entirely sure when it was written, though I think it was part of his historical compilation of 1704. Naima's account (including footnotes) spans pages 110-5 of Pulaha's book, I can share the pages if you and others would like, although note that the report has been translated into Albanian. As for Pulaha's commentary (starts with a brief introduction of Naima's account), I can translate since it is shorter:
 * (p. 110)
 * (p. 115)
 * Regarding Naima's attestation of an agreement (Ahdname) reached between Vučo Pasha and the rebels of Kelmendi, in which it was stipulated that the latter would: no longer cut off trade routes and roads, pay tribute/tax (haraç) as before, and be resettled from Kelmendi to the nahiyah of Plava, becoming loyal subjects. Pulaha considered this to be evidence of Vučo Pasha's defeat or inability to fully subdue to the Albanian rebels, and Naima's attempts at embellishing the event to deny the Kelmendi of victory:
 * (p. 115) Lezhjani1444 (talk) 15:29, 26 September 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep per Maleschreiber, plus the discussion I had with Wafflesvarrg when I hijacked Maleschreiber's comment thread above.  Satisfies WP:GNG, so keep and rename to a more appropriate title if needed.  I don't think a merge/redirect to the tribe article because some of the issues that Wafflesvarrg has raised relate to the accuracy and reliability of the sources.  A standalone article is the place to expand upon modern interpretations of the reliability of earlier sources, not hijacking the tribe article where this subject might merit, at most, one paragraph before overwhelming it.  RecycledPixels (talk) 23:24, 21 September 2023 (UTC)
 * @RecycledPixels I’m not sure how you can already vote and say that it satisfies WP:GNG, without “significant coverage addressing the topic directly and in detail”; we only have one source which may not be RS contradicted by two passing mentions that do not address the topic directly and in detail. At the moment it clearly fails to meet the WP:NOTABILITY criteria. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 10:24, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * I didn't already vote before this, I was asking you questions for clarification while I formed an opinion. This was my first and only bolded vote as a result of that discussion.   I don't agree with your assessments about the sources.  We have a contemporary report by Frang Bardhi that is significant coverage of the facts of the event.  We have a modern re-publication of that report with some critique by Robert Elsie on the albanianhistory.com, as well as another source by Elsie, the 2015 Tribes of Albania, page 31, he uses Bardhi's writing again in mentioning the attacks by the Kelmendi on caravans in Albania, Bosnia and Serbia so clearly he felt that Bardhi's writing was factual, albeit possibly embellished.  In mentioning Bardhi's work in that book, he cites "Injac Zamputi (ed.),  Relacione mbi gjendjen e Shqipërisë veriore e të mesme në shekullin XVII. Teksti origjinal dhe përkthimi nga Injac Zamputi. Burime dhe materiale për historinë e Shqipërisë, 3. Vëllimi I (1610 – 1634), Vëllimi II (1634 – 1650) [Reports on Conditions in Northern and Central Albania in the Seventeenth Century. Original Texts and Translations by Injac Zamputi. Sources and Material on the History of Albania, 3. Vol. I (1610 – 1634), Vol. II (1634 – 1650)]. Tirana: Universiteti shtetëror i Tiranës, 1963, vol 1, pp 276-278" (citation 35).  The webpage reprint of Bardhi's writing also cites "Peter Bartl (ed.), Albania Sacra, 3 (Wiesbaden 2014), p. 137-140" and "Injac Zamputti (ed.), Dokumente për historinë e Shqipërisë (1623-1653) (Sankt Gallen & Prishtina 2015), p. 193-198." so there's clearly more written about this event and/or Bardhi's writing on the event (that I haven't attempted to access since those were clearly written in a language I don't understand and don't have the time or interest to translate).   Those by themselves establish WP:GNG, without even considering the other sources brought up here, such as Lavisse, Lenormant, and others. RecycledPixels (talk) 15:27, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Elsie is using the part of the document that is backed up by other sources (Kelmendi attacking merchants, mentioned by everyone) Elsie is skipping the part we are talking about which is also how we should proceed here per wiki standards. A mere mention of an unnamed event doesn’t help with GNG, neither does a single possibly unreliable source from 1638 not corroborated by other independent sources or by recent research by modern historians. “To be suitable for a stand-alone article a topic needs to show significant coverage in reliable sources” none of the sources you mentioned satisfy that. Bartl and Zamputti only present archived documents related to Albanian history. If you look it up and translate all that it is easy to check. Lavisse is also just a mention, Lenormant contradicts Bardhi and is not enough for an article (full quote is on the Kelmendi article). You need to look at the type of content to see if they provide SIGVOV not just at their existence. At the moment we do not have anything significant or reliable to warrant this article. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 13:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting this discussion as currently, there is No consensus. A couple of comments, first, the time stamps on this AFD are all out-of-whack because the AFD wasn't transcluded correctly. It was started 9/14 but didn't get placed on the daily log page until 9/18. Secondly, User:Wafflesvarrg, please do not bludgeon this discussion. Do not respond to every comment here that has an opposing point of view with a contradictory comment. Finally, AFD is not the proper location for a content discussion so please do not get into a debate of minute details on each source that is better to have on an article talk page. This is a general discussion on whether this article should be Kept, Deleted, Merged or Redirected. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 02:07, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Maleschreiber, sources clearly indicate that it wasn't just some clashes but an full Ottoman campaign against the Kelmendi tribe. I think its also important to note that it is very strange, that the User who joined Wikipedia a few days ago directly starts to nominate 2 articles of another user for deletion. Based.shqiptar.frompirok (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Please read the prior comments so you can familiarise yourself with the discussion. Maleschreiber has not brought source(s) (yet) but the same source (Bardhi) that I was already discussing with RecycledPixels, an OLD source that might be unreliable since it comes with a warning and is also contradicted by other mentions. At the moment we only have passing mentions which do not address that event in details and are not enough to demonstrate GNG and SIGCOV. Not sure I understand your last comment but you're welcome to comment on my tp. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 13:47, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment: To be clear with all the participants (and with the administrator closing this AfD), since I don't think I can keep answering such a large number of editors for long. Frang Bardhi's report from June 1638, has value as a historical source, but its reliability may be subject to scrutiny. Robert Elsie has characterised Bardhi's account as "somewhat glorified" which suggest that the report contains elements of exaggeration, myth-making, or bias that may have distorted the true nature of the event (looking now at new source provided by Lezhjani1444). Here are the other two sources mentioned, translated from French, which contradict "Bardhi" .:
 * 1) Ernest Lavisse - Histoire générale du IV siècle á nos jours: Les guerres de religion, 1559-1648. P. 894  All the mountains were engulfed by the hordes of Doudjé-Pasha: the majority of the Klementi, Albanians of the Catholic religion, were transplanted to Serbia and Macedonia (1638); and Sultan Mourad IV, to whom Albanian heads were brought, with their hair divided into four braids and decorated with silver chains, joked about it with the nobles of his court, saying: “See how well Doudjé adorned the heads of my subjects of Albania.“ This servitude of the Albanian and Serbian mountains was to last sixty years.
 * 2) François Lenormant - Turcs et Monténégrins P. 129  Despite so much suffering, they still resisted in 1638, when Sultan Mourad IV, freed from the war with Persia after the capture of Baghdad, charged Doudjé-Pasha, former bostandji-bachi, appointed governor of Bosnia. (...) Doudjé-Pasha's expedition opened in the heart of winter. The courageous mountaineers, although weakened by famine and lacking ammunition, put up a desperate defense. They rolled huge blocks of rock from the tops of the mountains onto the Turkish army. The death of their knèze Vokodoud, killed in a fight, and a few days after that of the voivode Hotasch, whom the Pasha himself surprised by climbing an inaccessible peak with crampons, deprived the Clementi of their best chiefs and determined their submission. The leaders of the tribe were decapitated, and their heads sent to Constantinople. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment: Apologies all for hijacking the conversation earlier, I'm a newbie to this! I am summing-up all the findings below and on the article TP. I am not against a rename to "1638 Ottoman expedition against Kelmendi" for example, but is that enough material for an article? wouldn’t it make more sense to create a section with that name in the Kelmendi (tribe) article?. I will let the community decide and will do my best to improve the topic following whatever decision is taken. If new sources are found please share. Thank you to User:Lezhjani1444 for all his research, wishing everyone a good day. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC) edited (typo) Wafflesvarrg (talk) 13:02, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

In February 1638, Sultan Murad IV commanded Vučo Pasha, the beylerbey of Bosnia, to lead a 15,000-strong army, composed of soldiers of various origins (Dalmatians, Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians, and Bosnians), to quell unrest in Malësia e Madhe and to punish the local tribes for brigandage. After stopping in Shkodër to receive an additional 1,000 Albanian soldiers, the military expedition entered the the highlands of Kelmendi. The challenging terrain and heavy snowfall compelled the Ottomans to resort to pillaging and razing villages in search of supplies. Anticipating the Ottoman threat, local Kelmendi rebels concealed their families, cattle, and valuables in a grotto in the mountains. Outcome of the campaign differs depending on sources: According to Ottoman historian Mustafa Naima, and to 19th-century French historians Ernest Lavisse and François Lenormant (using Ottoman and Western sources) Kelmendi leaders were caught and beheaded, their heads were then sent to the Sultan in Constantinople, while the surviving members of the tribe were relocated to Pristina and other regions. Austrian historian Spiridon Gopčević writes that starved to death, the Kelmendi surrendered after the death of their leaders Vukodud and Hotaš, and that the majority of the tribe was relocated to Pristina. According to Albanian bishop Frang Bardhi, and to modern Albanian scholars (using Bardhi’s report as source) the Ottoman force found itself encircled and attacked by the Kelmendi, during the confrontation a thousand Ottoman soldiers were killed, leading to the Ottoman force retreat to Bosnia. Wafflesvarrg (talk) 12:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep - There are sources and there are questions about the sources. I suspect this article is not the correct final form, and a rename of the article may very well be in order, but that is not an AfD outcome. A redirect or merge does not seem like a good outcome in this case, as there is some subject here that has not been shown to be a clear sub topic of an existing target. The sources that are identified are sufficient to pass GNG for an article about these events. It may not be this article but improvement by way of renaming and refactoring the article would be a content discussion going forward and is out of scope of AfD. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:28, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
 * Comment. Can someone point to which secondary RS provide SIGCOV of this skirmish as a defined event? If the only sources with more than a passing mention are primary then they unequivocally do not contribute to notability and the article should be deleted.
 * JoelleJay (talk) 18:19, 1 October 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.