Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Kyiv (2022) (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was WP:SNOW keep as an ongoing event with a different scope than the cited "duplicate" article. Discussion about merging/renaming can be held on the talk page after the dust has cleared. (non-admin closure) ansh. 666 17:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Kyiv (2022)
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Duplicates the scope of Kyiv Offensive (2022). ― Tartan357  Talk 09:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. ―  Tartan357  Talk 09:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. ―  Tartan357  Talk 09:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletion discussions. ―  Tartan357  Talk 09:36, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep No, this is for the battle of the city itself. The other one is for the offensive as a whole. Curbon7 (talk) 09:38, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Noting that you can see me make a fool of myself if you click the link for the first AfD from a few hours ago: Articles for deletion/Battle of Kyiv (2022). Curbon7 (talk) 09:39, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I've seen that, and that is the article I think we should use; it was previously at this title if I'm not mistaken. We do not have enough information for two articles at this point. It is way WP:TOOSOON for a separate article; Kyiv Offensive (2022) is small enough already. ― Tartan357  Talk 09:42, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep not a duplicate. Kyiv Offensive (2022) is a offensive involving multiple battles while this is the battle for a single city. Elijahandskip (talk) 09:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * We have barely anything confirmed to put in either article at this point. We need to stop splitting the content into a ridiculous number of undersourced articles, and work on the ones we have. ― Tartan357  Talk 09:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * An offensive is very much different than a battle. That is the reason, it isn't a "split", it is two completely different topics.  Same reason Normandy landings and Operation Overlord are different articles; they are different topics. Elijahandskip (talk) 09:47, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I can see the need for two articles in the future, but we are in the fog of war right now and have basically nothing to say about the "Battle of Kyiv"—just a single report that some Russian troops may have entered the city. Wikipedia is WP:NOTNEWS, we need to wait. ― Tartan357  Talk 09:49, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Russia-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 09:40, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:TOOSOON (yes I know it's just an essay) with no prejudice against recreating this when there is proper, in-depth sourcing available. This is an ongoing current event that sources are not speaking about yet coherently or holistically. I would suggest this deleting is done speedily as I think it is slight irresponsible to keep this up given the current war in Ukraine and risk of misinformation spreading. At the very least this page should be protected ASAP. Vladimir.copic (talk) 09:58, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No prejudice from me against a speedy nomination if there is a proper criterion. ― Tartan357  Talk 10:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggestion for &, since you both agree the topic could be split in the future and are basing the delete !votes on no "battle of Kyiv" yet, how about we draftify until the battle begins? Elijahandskip (talk) 10:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a great idea. I'd be happy to withdraw this nomination if that happens. ― Tartan357  Talk 10:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * until the battle begins? What? We go off reliable sources - WP isn't a newsroom! I cannot even find any sources referring to this as "Battle of Kyiv". That said - I'm happy with anything that takes this off the main space ASAP. Vladimir.copic (talk) 10:12, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I missed that part—thanks for catching it. A split should only occur once the dust has settled and there is significant enough content to warrant two articles. ― Tartan357  Talk 10:13, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah perusing through happenings on Twitter, it seems as if this was a bit hasty on my part. I just saw the articles that said fighting in Kyiv, but those probably aren't the most accurate. We're working with very limited info, so we're all doing the best we can. My mistake (I'm still like 3 for 5 tonight lol). Curbon7 (talk) 10:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Can you move it back to draft space? I will withdraw this deletion nomination if you do. You moved it into mainspace, so you should be able to go ahead and move it back. It can be moved back when/if there is significant enough content in Kyiv Offensive (2022) for two articles after the dust has settled. ― Tartan357  Talk 10:17, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Can any of the keep voters give some kind of sourcing for this? At the moment this is just WP:CRYSTALBALL, WP:NOTNEWS and WP:OR. Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:18, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge with Kyiv Offensive (2022), to avoid confusing readers. Vida0007 (talk) 10:11, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep for now anyway. The offensive’s scope is mainly Kiev Oblast (rural), this is Kiev city (urban). Juxlos (talk) 10:57, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete per not WP:NOTNEWS and WP:TOOSOON. There isn't even anything confirmed about this yet to write an article with. Give it a few weeks or really months until there's some actual facts about what is going on. There's zero way anything reliable or fact based is coming out about it at this point though. --Adamant1 (talk) 11:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The offensive to take Kyiv, spanning an entire oblast, is different from the battle for the city. Both will go down as very, very historically significant events. VR talk 11:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep both Battle of Kyiv (2022) and Kyiv Offensive (2022). They are two different articles for two different things. This one is for the Battle of Kyiv, and although the article needs to be extended and improved, I think it would be a mistake to delete it at this time. Salvabl (talk) 12:08, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * you're right this is somewhat of a WP:CRYSTALBALL. But also WP:NOTBURO - if we delete this article now, we'll be recreating it in a few days, if not a few hours. Russian forces have already entered the city and Ukrainian troops are stiffly resisting (note these links might say something different in a few hours). WP:NOTNEWS doesn't apply because these events are definitely of enduring notability.VR talk 12:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Recreation would be fine because presumably then sources describing something called the “battle of Kiev” exist. Currently no one calls this event this name. Needing an event to have actually happened and be described by reliable sources is not bureaucracy. Or should we just create a “battle of insert Ukrainian city” article for every city and fill in the blanks later? The real WP:NOTBURO travesty is that this AfD will linger on for a week allowing this OR to stay in mainspace rather than an admin deleting it outright. Vladimir.copic (talk) 13:10, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment - Jeesh! Really? waiting less than 6 hours after the 1st AfD closed before opening a 2nd round has to set some kind of record. Note to Closer: Most of those who voted on the 1st proposal have not been informed that a 2nd was immediately opened, and even for the one I saw had been notified, this whole thing is so irregular they may not realize that they are being informed about a different discussion than the one they !voted on earlier in the day. Closer should take into account the !votes and rationales given in the other discussion. Agricolae (talk) 12:21, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The last AfD was withdrawn 30 minutes after it opened… It’s not as if it was a full discussion where consensus was reached. Vladimir.copic (talk) 12:25, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * The last AfD was for the article that now sits at Kyiv Offensive (2022), which I support keeping. That article was moved to that title, leaving a redirect, which was later turned into this article. So that "first nomination" actually has nothing to do with this article. ― Tartan357  Talk 12:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep both Kyiv Offensive (2022) and Battle of Kyiv (2022) which is a sub-battle of the overall offensive. EkoGraf (talk) 13:02, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge with Kyiv Offensive (2022), as per . If that article would be a long one, I would understand the arguments above, but that isn't the case (yet). Iamthedutchdude (talk) 13:47, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If we would keep this article, I think we should at least rename it to Battle of Kiev (2022), as the other battles of Kiev. Iamthedutchdude (talk) 14:26, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * If the article is currently Kyiv, shouldn't the descriptive name follow the same spelling? — Mhawk10 (talk) 14:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * In that case, the other articles should be renamed (which I would find OK as well). Iamthedutchdude (talk) 14:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * There are lots of cases where older names are used in some contexts, while more accurate names are used in a recent context. Hanover vs Hannover would be a good example. Guettarda (talk) 15:34, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. There is indeed a battle within the city of Kyiv, and a military battle that is waged in the capital of a sovereign state is extremely likely to pass WP:NEVENT. This isn't a WP:CRYSTALBALL if there is already gunfire in Kyiv. — Mhawk10 (talk) 13:51, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, the arguments are convincing, the battle or siege of the city of Kiev takes place in parallel with the Russian offensive or campaign in the Kiev region - LLs (talk) 14:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - There's enough distinction between the Kyiv Offensive (which is the entire push south from the border) and the battle for Kyiv itself (which appears to be underway). There's enough precedent in the way campaigns, offensives, battles and sieges are written about in Wikipedia for this to have a stand-alone article. At this stage, I don't think there's much point in worrying about what people are calling it, just that it's a thing that's being given non-trivial coverage in reliable sources. Which this is. Guettarda (talk) 15:32, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep There's a difference between an offensive and a battle. While the article might have been created prematurely, deleting it would be a bit too much of a hassle for me. Cheers, The man from Gianyar (talk) 15:52, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep this is and will be an important article. This is the Ukrainian capital. The President is apparently still in Kyiv. This is not WP:CRYSTALBALL, Kyiv is objectively under attack. CaffeinAddict (talk) 16:14, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Speedy Keep The city is under attack. A battle is undergoing. Bedivere (talk) 16:28, 25 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - I think this was too soon to nominate for deletion, as the extent of the battle is not fully known as yet. When all is said and done, it might be better to merge it to the Kyiv Offensive article, but as of right now, it should stand.  Onel 5969  TT me 16:57, 25 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.