Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Battle of Tamworth


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete -borderline failed verification with sourcing, such as it exists, of questionable reliability for historical facts. Star  Mississippi  01:52, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Tamworth

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

The article is about a supposed Battle of Tamworth in 873-74. The only source cited in the article at does not mention Tamworth in this period. PROD was reverted on the ground that the battle is mentioned in Tamworth and Burgred of Mercia. Wikipedia articles are not reliable sources and neither articles cites a source supporting the claim. The Burgred article cites, which does not mention Tamworth. I work extensively on the history of this period and I believe that the article is about an imaginary event, but I will of course be happy to change my mind if there is evidence from a reliable source otherwise. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:22, 18 May 2022 (UTC)-
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Military. Shellwood (talk) 14:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete - the purported "source" given in the article (The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle) does not mention Tamworth at all. And it's not mentioned in Stenton's Anglo-Saxon England at all as a site of a battle. In fact, Stenton states "From Torksey, late in 873, the army [Ealdgyth note - The Great Heathen Army] moved to Repton in the centre of Mercia. After a war of which no details are known Burgred, king of the Mercians, left England to spend the rest of his life at Rome." (pp. 250-251 3rd edition). So... Stenton knew no details but this article purports to give a lot ... it's feeling like a hoax to me. Ealdgyth (talk) 14:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Further - Richard Abels' biography of Alfred the Great, when discussing the events leading up to Burgred's abdication ... mentions no such battle/siege at Tamworth - in fact doesn't mention Tamworth at all. I think that Stenton and Abels, two modern historians well versed in the sources and period covered, should be considered much more authoritative than a 1913 article in an illustrated general-readership magazine. Nothing else I have on my (extensive) shelves mentions any such siege or battle at Tamworth. Ealdgyth (talk) 15:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I gotta ask - did no one at Articles for Creation who checked off on this article here it is as it looked when it got sent to mainspace even LOOK at that source link? First - the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle so it's ability to show notability is a bit suspect, but that aside - on the given source here, there are TWO mentions of Tamworth (it was easy - I did a "find" on the page!) .. and one relates to events in 913 and the other to events in 918. Okay, so let's check the 873 ad 874 entries - well, nothing in 873 has anything about sacking ANY town. 874's entry is "This year went the army from Lindsey to Repton, and there took up their winter-quarters, drove the king, Burhred, over sea, when he had reigned about two and twenty winters, and subdued all that land. He then went to Rome, and there remained to the end of his life.  And his body lies in the church of Sancta Maria, in the school of the English nation.  And the same year they gave Ceolwulf, an unwise king's thane, the Mercian kingdom to hold; and he swore oaths to them, and gave hostages, that it should be ready for them on whatever day they would have it; and he would be ready with himself, and with all those that would remain with him, at the service of the army." Again - no seige, no sack. Nothing about Burgred going into hiding, nothing about Ivar or Ubbe, nothing about Leofrith... did no one READ the source? It's blatantly not supporting the information it's purporting to support! Nowhere on that source page is Ivar or Ubbe or Leofrith mentioned at all!!!! How did this pass AfC??  Ealdgyth (talk) 19:12, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * So ... we're to take the word of a local government over the word of Frank Stenton or Richard Abels - two historians who extensively studied the period and know the sources and stuff? GAH! Ealdgyth (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * As I seem to be the only one who has mentioned local government on this page, I am assuming that this last comment is probably directed at me. If that is so, you appear to have missed my point. If we have a government entity reporting something as fact then we probably need to make a note of it, even if we say; "Tamworth Castle and related tourism information refers to a battle in Tamworth in 874. However, this is not supported by academic sources." From Hill To Shore (talk) 19:31, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * That is an argument for a note on the Tamworth page, not for keeping this article. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Not an expert and haven't even been to AfD before. That said,, says that "To Tamworth, between his warlike excursions, Offa, the greatest of the Mercian Kings, retired, and kept royal state in a palace whose proportions and magnificence are described as 'the wonder of the age'. The town was destroyed by the Danes in 874, and Mercia, as a kingdom, fell." Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:54, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * (This is not a vote to keep the article, or of any kind, I just wanted to note that something did happen..!) Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 15:06, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * A 1913 article in a popular magazine is not evidence that anything happened. Dudley Miles (talk) 16:16, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * It wasn't my intention to prove that any siege or battle happened, but I'll leave you to it. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 16:48, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 14:55, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * , who accepted the article at Articles for Creation. Espresso Addict (talk) 18:19, 18 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Further enquiries needed Given the prevalence of the idea that Tamworth was burned by the Danes in 874 in numerous online local history articles, it may be that further investigations of reliable local history sources might reveal an origin for the story.  However, the article title "Battle" of Tamworth seems purely a Wikipedia coinage, repeated only on mirror sites.  Even if a source relating to the burning of the town did surface, whether the burning is in any way notable must still be demonstrated Monstrelet (talk) 18:33, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep This page from the local government site for Tamworth says they created a re-enactment of the 874-75 siege. That isn't an authoritative source to say a siege happened but it is a clear indication that there is significant belief that it happened. If there isn't reliable source material to report the event as fact, we probably still need an article to report it as an unproven myth or hoax. However, this same function of noting the myth/hoax may be filled by a brief note on another article. From Hill To Shore (talk) 19:08, 18 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete. Popular histories aren't reliable sources for Anglo-Saxon history; I haven't seen anything cited that I think qualifies as a reliable source for this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 01:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete apparently my error.  DGG ( talk ) 06:34, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete -- The only source (or main source) on this period is Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, which merely tells how the Danes conquered Mercia. Anything beyond that is Original Research (in the sense used by WP), properly described as historical fantasy.  We do not know what happened to Tamworth on c.874.  Anything found in local histories is without any reliable source.  The article quotes ASC for 913 and 918: ASC text C s.a. 913 says that Aethelflaed built a burh at Tamworth.  ASC C s.a. 918 records her death there.  If there was a battle of Tamworth, it was in 943 (ASC D text) says that Olaf "broke down Tamworth and great slaughter fell on either side".  That is a more likely occasion for any destruction recorded by archaeology, but we should NOT have an article on this, because we know no more detail than the quotation I have just given.  There is far too little known to warrant an article.  If not deleted, it should be redirected to Tamworth, where the Anglo-Saxon section covers the subject, thiough naming a different Danish commander.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:10, 19 May 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment It's more than that, this claim has been made in numerous published sources. There is a related discussion goin on at Talk:Tamworth,_Staffordshire. G-13114 (talk) 21:09, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If you can provide an example of a source that makes this claim that would be considered reliable by Wikipedia's standards, I would change my !vote to "keep", but as far as I can tell it's only popular histories which say this. I know I've seen examples of Victorian antiquaries adding made-up details to their accounts of Anglo-Saxon history, and those old books, which are accessible on Google Books to anyone interested, get used as sources in their turn.  Hence this is a topic area where academic sources are really necessary. Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:25, 20 May 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.