Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beloved God Prayer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. As Steve Smith writes, the "delete" side is clearly stronger argued. On the "keep" side, only Randy Kryn makes (valid) arguments based on sources, while everybody else makes non-policy arguments such as about how important prayers are, or speculates about other people's "knowledge about this subject". And since Randy Kryn's arguments haven't convinced anybody else, I can't give their opinion determining weight.  Sandstein  14:17, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Beloved God Prayer

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

I fail to see an iota of notability of the subject and non-trivial significant coverage about it, except in the biographical hagiography of Meher Baba, other biographies and self-sources.Yeah, he wrote it but how it's encyclopedic stuff?!Notability isn't inherited.

Part of a walled garden around Meher Baba.Nukable mess.

This t/p thread may provide some nackgound aspects on the issue. ~ Winged Blades Godric 05:29, 9 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  ~ Winged Blades Godric  05:33, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep, this prayer was used on an album by Pete Townsend, and is a prominent part of the Meher Baba Wikipedia collection. The language used in the nom is copy/paste from over a dozen (maybe two dozen) deletion noms by the editor who, as the language of the nom and on talk pages shows, is clearly biased against the topic. I have asked him to remove all of these nominations, as I've never seen such a blatant attempt on Wikipedia to put so many pages of a topic-collection up for removal at one time. This wide-scale same-day placement of deletion noms for the same topic seems to create a confusion and presents a time-consuming task for anyone who wants to counter this attempt. This is a sad use of the process, and I hope an admin would remove all of these nominations. As on other pages, due to the language and bias shown, I have to say that I am not a member any organization concerning Meher Baba, nor do I know anyone who is. I'm an editor who sees a willful attempt to "gut" a Wikipedia topic-collection by using the AFD rules in such a way as to create a huge amount of work for any editor in opposition to it, something I've never seen here before. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:15, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
 * How does being used in an album by Pete Townsend grants standalone notability? Nothing is much mergeable anywhere and at best a redirect can be sought, either to Meher Baba or the album. As to the rest, sigh........ ~ Winged Blades Godric 02:09, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Total lack of independent sources is a strong indicator of lack of notability. Edward321 (talk) 14:28, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep This is part of a cannon of prayers by a real religious movement. See |Category:Prayers by Meher Baba. Why would the prayers of the Meher Baba movement be deleted and not the hundreds of prayers on Wikipedia. Prayers are in prayer books. Should we go hunting through Category:Prayer or List of prayers for whose prayers are holy and which not? Sounds like bias to me. How is any published and used prayer notable, and another not? There's no criterion. But if you want to delete this prayer be sure to be thorough and delete ALL Baba's prayers, for being especially not notable. A witch hunt for anything to do with the Meher Baba movement if there ever was one. Dazedbythebell (talk) 16:05, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete - I have not been able to find independent sourcing. There may be some content that could be merged into the Meher Baba article, but there isn't enough for a standalone article. I'm sure there are many articles about individual prayers from other religions that should be deleted from lack of notability, but that's irrelevant for the purpose of this discussion. --bonadea contributions talk 18:41, 13 May 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:21, 17 May 2018 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: I sort of hate to relist when this has already been relisted once without any additional discussion being generated, but I think it's the right move here. I almost closed this as delete, on the basis that, while the delete !votes are based on the WP:GNG, the keep !votes are not based on any identifiable Wikipedia policies, but I'm just not comfortable declaring a consensus to delete when the actual !votes are evenly split. So hopefully we'll either see more delete !votes, or some policy-based keep ones.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Steve Smith (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete-Concurring with those above...absolutely no independent reliable sources — FR+ 10:36, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep quite simply I don't believe that anyone in this discussion has any knowledge about this subject. In such a case I believe that we must err on the side of caution and at the very least before deletion, let someone in at least the geographical vicinity give us their judgment. Egaoblai (talk) 15:26, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * --RFLMAO.I and FR are both Indians and could be rationally expected to have access to regionsl sources, if any, about the issue.You need to try something better..... ~ Winged Blades Godric 15:40, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Despite your seemingly targeted deletion attempts at a good collection of Wikipedia page, I am sorry that you have lost your ass. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm...You need to see the statistics and the relisting comments...... ~ Winged Blades Godric 15:58, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Independent source added, Sourced in The Who and Philosophy 2016 by Lexington Books, an independent publisher and notable book, see page 155. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:43, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Non-trivial coverage.Mere mentions doesn't suffice. ~ Winged Blades Godric 15:59, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Notable coverage. The text discusses how Pete Townshend based a song on the Face Dances album on this prayer. The Wikipedia page on the song, "Don't Let Go the Coat", lists several more independent sources for this topic (please bring them over if you'd like, but this one is enough to source the topic for the page). Apparently this is one of the main Meher Baba prayers. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm not into prayers, but I am into Who, and this reference is new to me. I didn't know the connection of this prayer to Tommy. Which means I learn through Wikipedia something new. I'm sure this means nothing to Winged Blades of Godric, but others may not share his interest or disinterest in some topics, and to them this may be information. I care for Wikipedia and I don't like to see usefull information gone. The reference is good enough: Keep. Hoverfish Talk 21:11, 26 May 2018 (UTC) Misread source (subtitle is Tommy, but next page is missing) => invalid arument. Remove my vote. Hoverfish Talk 23:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The song wasn't in Tommy, but on the Face Dances album, but...I think in the same reference there is coverage that Tommy was based in part on Meher Baba's silence. Townshend seems like quite the fan, and seems to have been greatly influenced by Meher Baba's work and writings, and expressively honors him in many of his projects. Yes, learning on Wikipedia is enjoyable. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Yes, Townsend is a follower of Meher Baba. He has whole records dedicated to him. Even the Parvardigar prayer, which just got AfD'd BTW is the title of a song of his. Hoverfish Talk 23:29, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I know Face Dances isn't as well known as Tommy, but removing your comment? You must really be a Tommy fan! Randy Kryn (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
 * I remove my vote because my argument was its connection to "Tommy" of The Who. Now Townsend is a follower of Meher Baba and I do not know to which extent his work lends itself as independent RS. If we agree here that it does, I will vote again but will consider the Face Dances album instead. Hoverfish Talk 01:09, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The source would have lend to notability iff had it covered the subject in a non-trivial fashion.The single line about the subject, in the source is:--The song "Don't Let Go the Coat" on Face Dances is an homage to Baba's "Beloved God" prayer, which admonishes his followers to "hold fast" to the hem of his robe until the very end.....Nothing more.Nothing less. ~ Winged Blades Godric 01:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * As to Hoverfish's last point, Townshend's work obviously can't be treated as an auto-indicator of notability of works that he has derived from.But if reliable sources have discussed the source of the work, independently and in a non-trivial manner, that will obviously add to the notability of the subject.Best, ~ Winged Blades Godric 01:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
 * At best, there's a scope of redirect to Don't Let Go the Coat. ~ Winged Blades Godric 01:38, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The song's page has four major sources, if editors want to go take a look or pull them over to this article. Four reputable and independent books. Independent books discussing an important prayer of one of someone's very notable followers seem adequate as sources. The prayer was important enough to Townshend to base a song on it (as he did other Meher Baba related topics). I hope the closer notes that the nominator of this topic has nominated many Baba pages for deletion, good faith attempts although, as a result, this particular deletion may make the Baba template devoid of prayer, which is apparently an important part of adherents devotion. The reduction of subject matter on the template as a result of this mass-deletion project has resulted in less of an overall view given to the reader who is looking at one of out topic-templates to ascertain as complete a story as possible. The consensus seems to be leaning Keep now, or at a minimum no consensus, so maybe this one has a prayer of a chance (to not coin a phrase). Randy Kryn (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.