Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Belt Republic


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Delete. While I don't discount the opinions of IPs or new users out of hand, I tend to afford them less weight if their arguments are contrary to policy. Here there really is nothing that meets the notability guideline. Xymmax So let it be written   So let it be done  16:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Belt Republic

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non-notable fictional empire from a non-notable series of books. Icewedge (talk) 02:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC) I don't see the "non-notable" comment. What constitues "notable?" Does the book have to be on the New York Times Best Seller list? There are many books that deserve mention that have never been on that list. I would point out that the Belt Republic books are in public libraries(my public library has them), in public schools(again in our public school libraries), and are available for purchase at Barnes and Noble's web site and at Amazon.com Also, the fictional Belt Republic seems not to meet the criteria for an empire. It is a fictional republic. I don't agree with the deletion suggestion —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlertedd (talk • contribs) 05:56, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Further comment on the Belt Republic books "notability." These books have been used in presentations for instruction at some 33 public schools in two states and one Canadian province. See the "appearances" link at the author's website www.sff.net/people/ted-butler —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlertedd (talk • contribs) 06:09, 2 November 2008 (UTC) Lake Forrest Park Library, Bothell, WA. Camp Burton Library, Burton, WA. Springbrook School, Kent, Washington Decatur HS, 2800 SW 320th, Federal Way, WA. Lakota MS, SW 314th St. Federal Way, WA. WJ Mouat Secondary School 32355 Mouat Drive, Abbotsford, BC V2T 4E9 Semiahmoo Middle School Library, Surrey, BC Ballou Junior High, Puyallup, WA. Aylen Junior High Literary Club, Aylen Junior High, Puyallup, WA Cascade Middle School, 11212 10th Ave, Seattle, WA. Mill Creek Middle School, 620 N. Central, Kent, WA Los Alisos Middle School, Norwalk, CA. DeMille Middle School, Long Beach, CA. Jefferson Leadership Acad., Long Beach, CA. Vashon Library, Vashon Island, WA. Maple Valley Library, Maple Valley, WA Covington Library, Covington, WA. Auburn Library, Auburn, WA. Rainier Middle School Library, Auburn, WA. Mattson Middle School, Kent, WA Sequoia Middle School, Kent, WA Pine Tree Elementary, Kent, WA
 * Delete. Fails WP:NOTE in every single criteria. ThePointblank (talk) 05:17, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Anyone who makes an effort to find out how can sell their books on Amazon and Barns and Noble websites, so that is no indication the book is noteworthy. - Mgm|(talk) 12:13, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * This tells me that the books may be notable, but the realm of the books may be more suited to the article about the books, rather than their own article here. As for what's notable, see WP:N. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 06:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - More specifically, for this, see WP:FICT. Grandmartin11 (talk) 11:49, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, per my comments to the author of the article above. -- Dennis The Tiger  (Rawr and stuff) 06:12, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. I could find no reliable sources which write significantly about this series of books. They exist, but I couldn't see the notability.  SilkTork  *YES! 15:52, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete  this is an almost unknown book series  by almost unknown author. Essentially zero holdings in WorldCat for any of the authors works. "Secret fleets" & "Menace..." are  in 1 library each, "2176" in 2.  Typically WorldCat can under-represent such books by a factor of 2 or 3, but  for a  children's work of fiction anything under 100  is utterly non-notable. The  publisher is an established small press, the books are not self-published, but although I dislike to mention such things in this context, most local libraries will accept and keep a  published book from any local author.    DGG (talk) 23:15, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete I have them in my classroom and read them to my students.  The more advanced read them themselves.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tnibor (talk • contribs) 16:04, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete Good book series  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedartin (talk • contribs) 16:08, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not delete Worldcat is seriously defective.  The books are in the following libraries(and that's just the ones I know about in 2 states and one Canadian province.):Carmichael Middle School, Richland WA. (620 Thayer Drive, Richland, WA 99352)
 * it is true that most school libraries as distinct from public libraries do not contribute to world cat. Thanks for correcting me there. DGG (talk) 18:36, 4 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Do not delete —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlertedd (talk • contribs) 16:44, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:BOOK, is unsourced, I could list more. Did I also forget to mention that the above Do Not Delete voters all have not made any contributions to Wikipedia outside of this AfD or the article in question? Well now I have. D ARTH P ANDA duel 22:18, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do not delete Several of the previous comments, I hesitate to mention it, seem very snobbish. "If you haven't contributed to Wikipedia, you aren't allowed."  As for "unsourced" on the library listing.  See author's website previously referenced above.  Or does previous commenter insist on photo record of some kind?  Notarized statement?  On my honor, I have personally seen the books in those libraries.  That would be sufficient in a court of law.  Also, the books are in the Library of Congress, US.  I notice Worldcat doesn't list them, yet that library is a huge.  Sorry that Worldcat is defective in these regards.  Perhaps they (caretakers of Worldcat?) can fix Worldcat.  What an interesting discussion.  I've been asked to speak on a panel on Wikipedia at a convention in two weeks.  I'm going to have some interesting observations.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.104.241 (talk) 16:46, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. Of course. If you haven't contributed to Wikipedia, how can you demonstrate a knowledge of Wikipedian policy? If you go see WP:NB, it simply doesn't matter how many libraries the book is in. You need to pass the criteria of WP:NB. If it does, I will withdraw my delete vote and vote keep. Otherwise, my vote remains the same. D ARTH P ANDA duel 18:11, 4 November 2008 (UTC)
 * respond to comment. Okay.  Let me try for item four on notability.  This series of books have been used in a by the author in his  “How to Write a Novel” lecture.  The lectures were given to students by the author at the list of schools on the author’s appearance list on his web site.  www.sff.net/people/ted-butler  These lectures were given multiple times at high schools, middle schools, and one elementary school.)  The lecture has also been given at the public libraries on the appearances list.  I’m afraid you’ll have to take my word of honor that this was a lecture on “how to write a novel” based on the Belt Republic series, at 30 plus schools (given 60 plus times.)  Now the question is, does that satisfy notability item 4?  If verifiability is needed, contact Dana Ketcham, librarian, Pacific, Middle School, Burien, WA.  She has had the Belt Republic author back at her school a number of times for novel writing lectures.  Other school teacher/librarian contacts are also available.  Lecture has been given at schools in two states and one Canadian province.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlertedd (talk • contribs) 05:30, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have absolutely no trouble trusting you in this respect. However, WP:NN and WP:V both stipulate that third-party sources (i.e. a notable journal, magazine, etc.) needs to have coverage on the subject. For this particular book, that would equate to a review, a preview, or something similar. Furthermore, on WP:NB, section three (which is what I think you are referencing), I was under the impression that "instruction at multiple grade schools" meant part of the course and not merely part of a lecture. D ARTH P ANDA duel 12:41, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
 * respond to comment. (still do not delete) Belt Republic Book One "2176 Birth of the Belt Republic" was reviewed by D. Robert Keenan in King County Journal newspaper March 14th 2006. Author reproduces review by permission at his web site.  King County Library Newsbank reference for that review article is - http://docs.newsbank.com/s/InfoWeb/aggdocs/NewsBank/1105B8FF06214E30/0D4D9628AA42972A

At that time the newspaper served all of King County around Seattle, WA. King County is the most populous county in WA state. KCJ has since converted to Kent Reporter. As to instruction at multiple schools interpretation, I guess I have to say some of my own best instruction from others has come from single lectures. Also, I point out that these lectures were given during school hours and to students brought by their teachers. One librarian reported after the lectures a writing club was formed at that school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Butlertedd (talk • contribs) 05:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. WP:RS and WP:V stipulate that "Material from mainstream news organizations is welcomed." To prove notability, you will need more than just the King County Library Newsbank reference. On the issue of lectures being counted as instruction, I'd like to hear some other peoples opinions on this. Creation of a writing club following a reading of a book is not relevant to WP:NN. Thanks for your time. D ARTH P ANDA duel 15:08, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Devil's advocate here, King County Journal was the regional paper for east side until it folded a year or so ago. Site's gone, but this would be the archive. Even so, note it is still one article.  Needs more.  Additional point, availability at KCLS isn't notable either.  Just means books at a library.  Still gotta do WP:N. -- Dennis The Tiger   (Rawr and stuff) 19:37, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete 60 plus lectures in 30 plus schools of various levels, newspaper article in King County Journal. Sure seems adequate, unless as some suggest that that many schools and a newspaper serving 1.8 million people don't count.  By the way the wikipedia list of SF authors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_science_fiction_writers) (around 1000 names) has some rather unknown names on it and I've been reading SF for 56 years.  Should that list be reviewed for notability?  Gotta take a break for travel.  Hope this discussion is still going when I return.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.