Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ben Duscher (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. L Faraone  03:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Ben Duscher
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Relisting per Deletion_review/Log/2013_May_12. As DRV closer I am neutral. Spartaz Humbug! 05:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

I will try to tidy up the article so its squarely fits the criteria.The reason for the deadlinks is that Essendon has changed its web address and so many of the links will need to be repaired.NimbusWeb (talk) 08:32, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Thankyou. I was the creator of the article. Whilst the subject has not played AFL, he has acquired numerous personal honors and achievements in the VFL that make him particularly notable in that category. In my submission the subject satisfies point three of the AFL notabilty criteria ("known, and has received significant coverage in reliable sources, for major individual achievements in a state football league" ). To reprise, in this case the main arguments for the player meeting point three of these criteria are 1) his being captain of three VFL clubs, 2) won VFL best and fairest club medal (best first year player the preceding year and runner-up following year) 3) selected in VFL representative teams and 4) articles about him in papers that meet criteria which 5) include the opinion that he is amongst the best players in the VFL. As mentioned, an article from a reliable source newspaper on this player winning the Carter medal VFL club best player award can be found here: http://www.bendigoadvertiser.com.au/story/719111/duscher-wins-bendigo-bombers-club-champion-award/
 * Weak keep point 3 of the Aussie rules section of the oft-quoted WP:ATHLETE says "is known, and has received significant coverage in reliable sources, for major individual achievements in a state football league." Being named club captain and winning his club's best and fairest award is about the minimum requirement for that. And whilst most of the sources are from Bendigo local papers, there are some from major papers, so GNG is met too. The-Pope (talk) 09:45, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Even for people who choose to treat the notability guidelines as strict rules, it may not be clear how this article should be handled. People who take the guidelines for guidance (and keep to them closely or hardly at all) may also be uncertain as to what should be done. So, in !voting "keep" I am merely saying I think the situation is unclear but I think WP is better with this article than without it. That is not "ignoring all rules". It is a substantial article and its content seems well referenced. Thincat (talk) 11:10, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep I've now rearranged the material to squarely address point 3 and I think it does satisfactorily in this case. He has actually been co-captain of three VFL sides, won best first year and club champion awards and been selected in two VFL representative teams. He has been appointed as a paid coach of his fellow players in 2013 which also provides evidence of his being known for major individual achievements in the VFL.NimbusWeb (talk) 11:37, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. The-Pope (talk) 23:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. The-Pope (talk) 01:44, 22 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete I'm still not convinced he meets criteria 3 - "Is known, and has received significant coverage in reliable sources, for major individual achievements in a state football league." For a VFL player, I think that's J. J. Liston Trophy winners and premiership captains. I'm not sure a club B&F and captaincy is enough. Jevansen (talk) 07:57, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * Restricting point three to JJ Liston winners and Premiership captains seems arbitrary. There are surely many other ways in which VFL players can attain major individual achievements that satisfy the overarching criteria of notability for wikisportspeople: "A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of multiple published, non-trivial secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." Major individual achivements on the VFL football field can be signified in many ways apart from the JJ Liston Medal and Premiership Captaincy- there are numerous medals, awards and prizes, representative honors that can be acquired in multiples or at levels of achievement that make them notable. Then there is another class of 'major individual achievements" for people primarily classified as VFL footballers. If a VFL player was one of the first active players to 'come out' as being gay and received for that a prestigious award for fighting discrimination, established a charitable foundation and was awarded a Order of Australia or developed techniques that revolutionised the sport and received for those major individual achievements the type of publishing coverage required; surely he/she would fulfill the criteria of point 3. Here the subject has had not just one but three captaincies, dual representative team selection, appointment as a paid coach of his fellow players and other achievements that have led the non-trivial, reliable, independent sources to create a considerable volume of publications about him.NimbusWeb (talk) 10:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
 * There is one further issue that seems important to raise. Some of the comments in the debates about this article appear to have deprecated country newspapers in Australia (such as here the 'Bendigo Advertiser', 'Mildura Weekly' and 'Sunraysia Daily') as somehow inevitably failing to meet the requisite standard of "non-trivial, reliable, independent sources." I wonder how much of this reflects the city-bias of the users making these comments. And really, given the unfortunate examples set by the Murdoch Press in UK and Australia in recent times, it would seem a strong case can be made for these country papers more likely meeting the standard of "non-trivial, reliable and independent" than many so-called 'major' sources. If this kid is a country hero and has a bigger press following there than in the city why should that be a central argument against his notability in a due process situation?NimbusWeb (talk) 02:43, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.