Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ben Going


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was No consensus. Despite the the contention that this article clearly meets WP:BIO I don't see this as being the case. There are citations in the article from reliable sources, but Ben is not the primary subject of these sources; he is mentioned in passing along with other vloggers. I would consider this to be trivial coverage. That said, there is quite a bit of trivial coverage; enough that I think the gestalt establishes that the subject meets the spirit of WP:BIO if not the letter. There is also the issue of a number of newer editors with a fixation on this particular AfD opining here. Distilling out just the opinions of more established editors leads me to declare that there is no consensus to delete at this time, thus defaulting to keep. That said, some of the sourcing could use tightening up; not everything being used is a reliable source. --Isotope23 16:51, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Ben_Going
Delete Article is nominated but it is lacks factual information and is written like a fan site and/or autobiography for a person who is currently living. It lacks neutrality based on edits made by close friends and appears to be an advertisement for Vlogger. The page has been up for over a year and the content is misleading and counter factual. It redas like a resume/cv or advert for "his career". This "vlogger" has threatened to delete his youtube account several times, and uploads copyrighted material which against the TOS of both this site and YouTube.Sexyorge
 * Keep - I'm seeing reliable sources including The New York Times, The Associated Press, and CNET. The article is a little spammy, but it looks like it just needs a little clean-up.  --Haemo 01:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - He got a passing reference in the NYT article, a passing reference in the CNet article, and a passing reference in the AP article. In none of those three did he receive significant coverage.  He doesn't meet the notability guidelines, there is really nothing else to it.  cacophony ◄► 18:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * For the record, you are mischaracterizing his coverage in the sources you mention. You also neglect to bring up the two Australian sources, of which he is the subject. Ichormosquito 06:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - No, YOU neglected to bring up the two Australian sources, one of which is a blog and the other of which is a youtube video. cacophony ◄► 05:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Here are the links for editors to judge for themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7wlyeajSY and http://blogs.theage.com.au/lastlaugh/ One is a recording of an A Current Affair segment, another is from a blog owned and operated by The Age.  Since what I'm citing is the existence of the segment itself, A Current Affair is a reliable source.  If your concern is that the only proof the segment aired exists on YouTube, the Age confirms it did, indeed, air.  Reliable sources contains within it some measure of flexibility, hence the "guideline" template. Ichormosquito 20:36, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - The blog in question is not owned and operated by The Age, but in fact by one of their reporters. The blog itself is not affiliated with the news, it's just a courtesy provided to employees.  The views of the blog do not represent the views of the news.  It is an Op-Ed blog, and nothing more.  cacophony ◄► 23:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep - Primarily for Haemo's reasons. It was already nominated for deletion review, and that seemed to go well.  For the record, I wrote most of the article; but I am not, as Sexyorge accuses, the subject's "close friend".  I've never once corresponded with Going, either in the "real world" or through the internet. Ichormosquito 02:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per Haemo. Also, note that the nominator appears to have placed a second prod tag instead of an AfD notice on the page.  I have since fixed this. Maxamegalon2000 05:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep per existence of WP:RS.--h i s  s p a c e   r e s e a r c h 07:51, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Florida-related deletions.   -- John Vandenberg 08:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - I'm seeing unreliable sources including The New York Times, The Associated Press, and CNET. For example in the NYT article, never did it state he auditioned for the movie Jackass.... Associated Press, Going ranks as "one of the best-known members of the YouTube community is a lie, the AP never stated this information...Information was never given from these sites, they were all made up to advertise the story..... The article is a little spammy,it looks like it was made a fansite it totally needs to be deleted.  --jillgobean0 16:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * You're blatantly misrepresenting the article's sources: everything you said is false. I took the liberty of resubmitting your comment in the order in which it was posted. Ichormosquito 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * disagree, in fact you Ichormosquito the one you wrote edit and article are misrepresenting and misciting your sources such as New York Times article. I agree with other users. No where does the article state that Boh3m3 was part of Jackass or auditioned. In fact, all it said was that he was inspired (techincally "aspired"). the "video" in question is set to private, and lacks credibility because it's inutile. nevertheless, the article needs expert attention and less bias. nevertheless, the article needs expert attention and less bias first-person ,opinioned worthless material. Sexyorge
 * The quotation from the AP is real ... someone is lying. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The quotation from the NYT is real ... someone is lying. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:48, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Sexyorge is an account created just to vote on this, and another youtube related deletion. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:50, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - A summarily inaccurate representation of said user's contributions. Stop lying.  cacophony ◄► 22:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * jillgobean0 is an account created just to vote on this. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Accounts created just to comment and vote for deletions concerning Youtube:

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Jillgobean0
 * User:Shoopshoop
 * User:Sexyorge
 * User:Josmul123
 * User:Mikeskehan
 * User:Sadisticloser
 * Comment New one for the list: User:ChuckImania Ichormosquito 08:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment And another: User:Hopeftw Ichormosquito 21:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment - User Shoopshoop's first edit is over 10 weeks ago. Does he or she have a time machine, or did he or she just see into the future to forsee this AfD? cacophony ◄► 22:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Question Is there any chance that it is you creating all the accounts to vote on the Youtube deletions? I didn't say the Shoopshoop account was created to vote on THIS youtube deletion. Please reread what I wrote. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 03:25, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, please refrain from misrepresenting statements. Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) did NOT claim "User:Shoopshoop" was created for this AfD.  He is right to claim User:Shoopshoop has done little on Wikipedia except work toward the deletion of content, especially YouTube-related content. Just today I cleaned up some of his vandalism at Caitlin Hill. User:Shoopshoop and User:Mikeskehan, mikeskehan on YouTube, were involved in the circus that became of YouTuber Cory Williams's AfD, which was tending toward a final decision of "no consensus" had Cory Williams himself not complained through OTRS of rogue Wikipedians who CALLED HIS HOUSE to argue against his article's existence.  YouTuber antagonists, and I use the plural even though I have doubts whether there are more than one, are utterly relentless.  I realize I'm going off topic and getting a bit ad hominem, but this whole charade is driving me nuts, which, I suppose, is its point.  I can only hope they (he?) don't (doesn't) have Ben Going's phone number. Ichormosquito 03:48, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - "He is right to claim User:Shoopshoop has done little on Wikipedia except work toward the deletion of content, especially YouTube-related content."
 * Correction: He claimed that User:Shoopshoop had done NOTHING except work toward the deletion of content.  You are softening up his statement and in the process completely changing the meaning of it.  Namely, the difference between mostly and completely.  cacophony

◄► 17:22, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * User:Shoopshoop's edit history speaks for itself. Ichormosquito 17:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Yes, and it says something different than what RAN1958 would have you believe it says. He asserts that Shoopshoop has done nothing but participate in deletion discussions, and that's false.  cacophony ◄► 17:42, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * "Accounts created just to comment and vote for deletions concerning Youtube"- So Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is speculating on motive. So what.  If User:Shoopshoop's contributions to deleted article Cory Williams and its associated talk page were still visible, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )'s position would be stronger than it already is. Ichormosquito 17:52, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - You are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. RAN1958 said that the only edits the account made were to comment and vote for deletions concerning Youtube.  This assertion is incorrect.  RAN1958 is wrong.  Why are you making such a big deal out of this?  It was an incorrect accusation and it has been proven incorrect.  It is indisputable because his contribution history is there for everyone to see.  cacophony ◄► 17:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * See "Drama", below. jillgobean0 is an obvious spoof of popular YouTuber xgobobeanx, a friend of Ben Going.  Sexyorge, nominator for this article's deletion, seems to be a spoof of TheSexyOgre666, a vocal defender of popular YouTuber Cory Williams, another one of Going's friends.    Ichormosquito 17:17, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * For a more specific reference to the Jackass thing, try this: "ExcChatting With Ben Going (Boh3m3 On You Tube)"  And just so we're clear, that bit of information was never meant to portray notability; it's just background.  I'm sure many people try to get on Jackass. Ichormosquito 19:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

- thx Shoopshoop 19:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * delete - whilst some youtubers are notable, like geriatric1927 and LG15 i srsly doubt boh3m3 is - admittedly he was popular, but was assisted by the many fake subscribers he created for himself - and he is now much further down the list - he is losing popularity fast - not notable - delete Shoopshoop 16:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Admins, please be on the lookout for sock puppet accounts. I hate to be paranoid, but Shoopshoop posted three minutes after jillgobean0. Ichormosquito 17:46, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * admins - plz do check - i dont use sockpuppets and i am sure it will take little efort to realise than i am not jillgobean0
 * Also, user jillgobean0 attempted to edit out Haemo's "keep" comment. I brought it back. Ichormosquito 17:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete: This isn't even remotely deserving of Wikipedia coverage. We can't cover every youtuber... Internet phenomena like that are covered by other sources, and they do not belong on Wikipedia. --Josmul123 18:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think you are trying to use the slippery slope argument. Its better to quote Wikipedia guidelines. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:02, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * We don't attempt to cover "every YouTuber". What cross-section we have at YouTube celebrities is closely monitored for notability and kept at a manageable size.  I know this isn't the most valid argument, but Going is at least as notable as anyone there. Ichormosquito 19:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep Plenty of reliable sources, he even has a photo in the New York Times article. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete - Fails to meet Wikipedia notability guidelines. That is all.  cacophony ◄► 18:44, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * What specific part of the guideline are you referring to? Its like saying "Its in the Bible, go look it up", Please cite one or more of the very specific reasons for deletion from the guideline. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:47, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The ones that dictate that a subject must have been the subject of significant coverage in several reliable sources. A passing mention is not significant coverage, yet that is what he received.  He is not notable by Wikipedia guidelines, and thus I cannot in good faith vote to keep this article.  cacophony ◄► 18:53, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * They just have to have enough coverage so the facts can be verified, and this is a "slam dunk", to quote George Tenet. The New York Times and the AP are both reliable. The media determines notability, not Wikipedians. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 19:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. The subject of a Wikipedia article must necessarily be deemed notable by Wikipedia guidelines, which you can find at WP:Notability.  What the "media determines" is irrelevant, Wikipedia has long-standing guidelines on this very subject.  To simply dismiss them as you have done is illogical and irresponsible.  By the way, I indented your comment by a tab to improve the page formatting.  cacophony ◄► 19:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I probably agree with you that such ought to be the rule, but I don't think we've convinced the community yet.DGG 22:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Going passes Notability (people) by virtue of multiple, non-trivial coverage. In addition to the sources in the article, of which he is *mostly* the focus, he is quoted in Newsweek and The New York Post, serving as a "go-to guy" for when mainstream media wants to touch base with the YouTube crowd.  Going also has a significant "cult" following. For one thing, he is the 19th most subscribed YouTube account with over 33,000 subscribers.  For another, the forum on his website, boh3m3.net, currently has 1,500 registered posters. Far from being a testament to Going's vanity, these users seem to have developed a community independent of fan worship.  His over 1,900,000 Google hits under "boh3m3" might be worth a mention, too.  Considering "boh3m3"'s unique spelling, this is a massive number. Ichormosquito 20:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It's perplexing how you can say that unless you hadn't read the guidelines and the articles you posted. Notability (people) states that they have to be the subject of multiple, secondary sources.  Ben Going has been the subject of exactly zero news stories.  In your Newsweek article, the only mention of Going is a single quote from him.  To say that he is mostly the focus of this article, or even barely the focus, is simply false.  Your NYPost article has the same amount of coverage: one, single quote.  The notability guidelines even state, "Trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources may not be sufficient to establish notability."  The sources you are providing only provide trivial coverage of Ben Going.  Again, he does not meet the notability guidelines.  I appreciate your contribution to Wikipedia in creating articles like this one, but unfortunately the subject here is not notable.  cacophony ◄► 22:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I did not claim he was the subject of the NY Post or Newsweek story. He is, however, given prominent coverage in the AP story, the CNET story, and the New York Times story, which printed his picture.  Taken together, they constitute notability, per If the depth of coverage is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may need to be cited to establish notability.  Regardless, Going is undoubtedly the subject of A Current Affair's segment The Australians are Fooling Us All, which you can view here.  One might even argue Going is the subject of The Age's rebuttal.  If Going is not notable, why do all these esteemed sources continue to reference him or bother to look up his phone number?  We're all working to better Wikipedia: please be sensible, rather than dogmatic. Ichormosquito 03:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - You claimed he was "mostly the focus" of the sourced articles. He is not.  Not even close.  He is given a passing reference.  How you can construe a passing reference as being "mostly the focus" is far beyond me.  Regardless, multiple passing references does not constitute notability, it constitutes trivial coverage.  Moreover, I most certainly will not use your blog link as a citation, because a blog is not a reputable news source, even if the owner of the blog is also a reporter.  cacophony ◄► 17:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Shoopshoop
 * Delete - Fails to meet Wikipedia notability guidelines. --Mikeskehan 19:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Gag name.--Edtropolis 19:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * although that is funny - wikipedia is NOT a humor site - i assume you mean't delete
 * Keep - Notability established with largely circulated publications as well as Australia's "A Current Affair" doing a complete segment as a result of "The Australians are Fooling Us All" and it's responses. I find it rather funny that as a result of a few sock puppet accounts this page is being considered for deletion yet again, in spite of the referenced sources. Bohemiabsinthe 20:20, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment' are you boh3m3 maybe you could defend yourself? why are you notable again? then again maybe your a fan, like i said "welcome to his fanpage" aka wiki-boh3m3. but in all seriousness are you Ben Going Bohemiabsinthe Sexyorge 02:53, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Notability has not been established, as those "largely circulated publications" only go so far as to give Ben Going a passing reference. It's also odd that you should mention sockpuppets, because you have no user page and this edit is the first one you've ever made.  cacophony ◄► 22:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * indeed http://www.myspace.com/bohemiabsinthe as i stated earlier this article has become a fansite/page for a vlogger, very confusing Sexyorge
 * Did he TRY to obscure his identity? No.  If that is, in fact, Ben Going, he has every right to participate in his own AfD. His comment about A Current Affair's "YouTube on OZ News: Vegemite Wars" is spot on, too.  Going is the subject of that piece, unequivocally. Ichormosquito 04:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Actually, in accordance with WP:COI, he is not allowed to participate in his own AfD. cacophony ◄► 17:35, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Pasted from WP:COI: Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit," but if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when: 1. Editing articles related to you If that is even Going, "exercise great caution" would seem to give him some wiggle room.  The user in question only posted once.  He backed up his "keep" with valid claims. Ichormosquito 19:46, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - In accordance with WP:COI, article subjects are not allowed to participate their own AfDs. cacophony
 * Comment I originally meant to paste in the second guideline. Wikipedia is "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit," but if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when: ...2. Participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors  "Exercise great caution" keeps popping out at me. Ichormosquito 00:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment "Excersise extreme caution" as in "don't do it and don't get involved with it". cacophony ◄► 23:52, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete - There is no notable reason for this page other than being a fansite. Sadisticloser 23:09, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I didn't think pointing this out was kosher, but since everyone else is doing it: you have only two edits. This is one of them. Ichormosquito 03:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Drama I hate to dump YouTube drama here; but this AfD is already out of hand, so I might as well "be bold" and suggest that the nominator for Ben Going's deletion, Sexyorge, is a revenge account set up by User:Mikeskehan, mikeskehan on YouTube. On YouTube, a user by the name of TheSexyOgre666 is one of Skehan's more vocal detractors.  Judging from Skehan's comments on Ogre's channel, Skehan seems to be fixated on him.  Ogre makes a point to defend popular YouTuber Cory Williams from Skehan's indiscriminate, lashing criticism of YouTube celebrities.  Ogre (as User:Viralmediaman) and Skehan tussled once before at Cory Williams's AfD and then through one of TheSexyOgre666's videos, MikeSkehan EXPOSED! Here's proof he uses DUMMY ACCOUNTS!.  Whether or not he's Skehan, hijacking the name "sexyogre" would seem like the activity of a spammer.  jillgobean0, another spam account posting at this AfD, is an obvious spoof of popular YouTuber xgobobeanx, first name "Jill", one of Going's compatriots.  I know we should assume good faith; but, try as I may, this situation precludes me from doing so.  Ichormosquito 05:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * response to drama. Ichormosquito i believe i can speak for myself. my name is not mikeskehan. again, its my feeling that you are missing the point for this nomination. Sexyorge
 * Comment - Ichormosquito, please abide by WP:Civil and immediately refrain from personal attacks, and especially lies. Your supposition is not proof.  In case you did not already know, WP:Be_Bold does not include making up lies about other users and asserting them as facts.  In addition to that, please WP:Assume_good_faith and refrain from these ad-hominem attacks and instead focus on the discussion at hand.  We already have enough accusations from you, 5 to 10 in this AfD ALONE, I think that is 5 to 10 too many.  Thanks, cacophony''' ◄► 17:33, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ichormosquito has since edited his post since I made the previous comment. cacophony ◄► 17:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I did. Editors are free to look up the previous version in the edit history. Fearing a reprimand, I softened my attack on Skehan. Ichormosquito 18:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * So do you, User:USER-cacophony, deny creating the sockpuppet accounts:
 * User:Jillgobean0
 * User:Shoopshoop
 * User:Sexyorge
 * User:Josmul123
 * User:Mikeskehan
 * User:Sadisticloser
 * the previous unsigned comment was added by User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ).
 * Comment i can't speak for other users but i am perfectly innocent Sexyorge
 * Comment - Absolutely. Also, I edited your post a bit for formatting purposes and added your signature.  cacophony ◄► 18:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Nothing I said is a lie. I didn't mean to offend anyone. Ichormosquito 17:43, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - If you cannot prove your wild accusations then you might as well be lying. You are blatantly insulting editors to their face, calling them spam accounts for not agreeing with you.  You may say you didn't mean to offend anyone, but you are offending me and hopefully others by muddling up this AfD with your baseless accusations.  Although I cannot speak for other editors, I can definitively say I would be offended if you called me a spam account, too.  Until you can prove these accusations, I challenge you to refrain from making them.  Thanks, cacophony ◄► 17:50, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Correction: I accused them of being spam accounts after checking their edit histories and, in the case of User:Sexyorge and User:Jillgobean0, because of their blatantly provocative names, not because they disagree with me. Ichormosquito 18:07, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Hi, I'm Michael Skehan. I am not a spam account as claimed by User:Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

I do not have any connections to other accounts listed by this user. As far as User:Ichormosquito goes, I'd greatly appreciate it if you would refrain from immature personal attacks directed twords me. I have a vote just like everyone else who voted on this article, just as you do. If you wish to have a discussion with me, please take it to private message or on another website. As far as http://www.youtube.com/thesexogre666 is concerned, this 'man' made claims on Youtube that I am a pedophile. You can see by comments I posted that I was just attempting to defend myself and I kept comments to a minimum, as I did not feel this users maturity level was up to par. To say that I am "fixated" with this guy is a rather reckless statement considering this YT user made two videos about me and I made zero about him. Kind of seems like the other way around. Also, implying that I called and harassed Cory Williams (Mr. Safety) is also a reckless statement, as I would not have access to his phone number. The comments left by this user are slanderous and I'm not even sure what they have to do with this articles possible deletion. Have a day.--Mikeskehan 21:12, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - You are confusing slander and libel. Please use a good source to learn the difference, such as Wikipedia. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 20:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - You did not accuse them of being spam accounts, you called them spam accounts. Example: "jillgobean0, another spam account" cacophony
 * The correct term is sockpuppet, not spam accounts. They were created just to edit this and another Youtube article vote for deletion. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 18:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

◄► 18:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You're right. Let me assure you, I posted my slander in good faith. Ichormosquito 18:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * just finished painting my house today and logged back onto to find my account accused of being "provocative". excuse me? but you're accusations are offensive frankly. i am a not a "sock" nor provocative. at this point i could care less. it should be clear what i stated already. i am a real person and believes this fansite should be removed due to neutrality and wp:rs. mainly because you are real life friends with thehill88 and boh3m3.Sexyorge
 * comment - any admin can easily determine that these are separate people - 6 accounts from one person is insane and paranoid - Shoopshoop 21:49, 14 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as non notable. Bradybd 08:34, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. They seem to have the sources.  I count three "reliable" sources in the reference list.  The article still may need a rewrite, though...  SchuminWeb (Talk) 10:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Before editors who are not familiar with Going run a Google search for a cursory assessment of notability, I suggest they try running his YouTube handle, "boh3m3", first. "boh3m3" produces over 1,900,000 hits, which is massive, especially given its unique spelling.  It gets a higher count than "lonelygirl15", approaches "renetto", and dwarfs many of the other notable YouTubers.  I'm posting this bit of info again so it's not lost in the AfD's jumble. Ichormosquito 21:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ichormosquito - the google hit is hugely inflated becuse of all the spider youtube mirrors such as

this and the thousands of other sites like it- Shoopshoop 21:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Be that as it may, YouTubers with moderate subscription rates don't produce nearly as many hits. Even TheHill88 only produces a little over 95,000.  My concern is that editors will try "Ben Going" and write him off in the process. Ichormosquito 21:41, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Ichormosquito, please refer to WP:GHITS and also WP:SET and refrain from making such misleading arguments. cacophony ◄► 21:54, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment There's nothing in the links you give that disallows a Google test, just warnings to the effect of "proceed with caution". Quoting from WP:GHITS: Although using a search engine like Google can be useful in determining how common or well-known a particular topic is, a large number of hits on a search engine are no guarantee that the subject is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia.  The reality is, editors who wish to comment but have never heard of Going will probably do a Google test.  I ask that they type in "boh3m3" for better results.  What number comparisons I made can only support Ben Going's notability; but I realize an argument along those lines can only go so far.   Ichormosquito 22:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - That's just it - the number comparisons you made don't support this guy's notability. To say that they do is false and may trick newer editors into thinking they can use a Google hits test to complement the notability of something.  cacophony ◄► 23:06, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment No, they do support his notability, just to a lesser degree than more legitimate arguments. Enough editors have the brains to not weigh all evidence equally.  I'm not "tricking" anyone. Ichormosquito 00:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment Since it is extremely unlikely that I will be closing this (I closed the DRV that led to unsalting after all), I note for the closing admin that some (not all) of the SPA/sockpuppet concerns raised above look credible, but in some cases look more likely to be the result of off-wiki canvassing. I myself am concerned with about 4-5 of the users.  RFCU is only to be invoked if it is believed the users affected the close, which we would be better off without.  I've added the not a vote template above.  This article is about a you-tube user, I don't care enough to form an opinion on whether the article should be kept.  GRBerry 15:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Again, not sure why this inappropriate user page remains. needs to check for WP:BIO standards. This vloggers' content remains unsuitable for an encyclopedia. I checked out Ichormosquito user page on YouTube, turns out the person is "friends" with both boh3m3 and his girlfriend thehill88. It's my feeling this article has turned into a resume to help boost boh3m3s' "online" career. A pretty weak resume at best, it appears to be somewhat a stub and lacks facts / pictures/ and notable information. This page would be best suited for uncyclopedia or a site that deals in fansites. Sexyorge 02:45, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You can't vote twice. I absolutely despise doing this, but here's my YouTube user page.  Yes, I am listed as TheHill88's "friend", along with 4,735 other people.  She approves for YouTube "friendship" whoever asks; we are hardly friends in any real sense of the term.  And I'm not listed as boh3m3's "friend".  When AfD is over, I want an admin to clear this information from the record. Since this AfD started, 5 noted YouTuber antagonists, or at least 5 separate accounts, have found my channel and subscribed.  At least one has commented at this AfD. Ichormosquito 04:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment He has a picture now. Ichormosquito 09:08, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment Someone Dugg this AfD, which has brought it to prominence on Google results for "boh3m3". Quote from Digger: "wow this is too hilarious. i guess boh3m3 is up for deletion because his friends and him wrote his own article. ha ha"  Don't be surprised to see more meat puppets. Ichormosquito 05:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment 11 Diggs and counting. Ichormosquito 21:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * commentDELETE This is ridiculous! How is this possible!? I guess wikipedia will just let anyone makeup an article. Bo3h3m is a waste of bandwidth. When I first read this article on Digg I couldn't believe my eyes. You can't be serious can you? It's rather obvious that Bo3m3's friends are trying their hardest to keep this article up. ChuckImania 06:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment User is a meat puppet and probably a sock puppet, too. I don't believe the user's story, considering how soon he posted after my Digg warning.  The story has only received 1 Digg so far. Ichormosquito 15:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Delete Boh3m3, or Ben Going admits to cheating the terms of the service for youtube. By begging for money on a various youtube clips in fact, in his latest video clip "e-begging" he admits to begging for money and then states he would do "anything for publicity" including having his friends edit and manage his wikipedia article to help advertise his career. Hopeftw 20:22, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Meat puppet. And Hopeftw is grossly mischaracterizing the video he mentions.  If Going were, in fact, stupid enough to mention Wikipedia in one of his video blogs, there would be a heck of a lot more spam on this AfD than there is now. Ichormosquito 21:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * 'CommentI’m assuming you label everyone that disagrees with you on this matter a “sock puppet”. Boh3m cheated the Youtube terms of service and used his “E-buddies” to help keep this article up. If Wikipedia ever wants to be considered a reliable source of information they’ll do the right thing and terminate bogus articles like this one. ChuckImania 21:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete Fails to meet Notability guidelines. OverlordQ 22:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I took the liberty of resubmitting User:OverlordQ's comment from its original placement to the order in which it was posted. I also noticed that User:OverlordQ and User:USER-cacophony, a fervent contributer to this AfD, are the sole contributers to a project in  User:USER-cacophony's user space, and that User:USER-cacophony has a history of vote stacking.  Plus, Wikipedia admin User:JzG once accused User:OverlordQ of being a meat puppet servicing the aims of User:USER-cacophony at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Myg0t_%28second%29 .  Ichormosquito 02:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment For the last time, Ichormosquito, please abide by WP:AGF and refrain from making unfounded accusations immediately. If you take a look at User:OverlordQ's contribution list, you would notice they have even more contributions than me, on a more diverse variety of subjects.  Yet your only proof that OverlordQ being a meatpuppet is that he and I both once contributed to the same page?  Get real.  Not to mention that JzG's accusation of vote stacking was a complete lie, as can be seen on my talk page.  If you do not cease harassing Wikipedia contributors immediately, I will be forced to take the issue to a higher authority.  Stop now.  cacophony ◄► 15:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I edited my post to show that User:OverlordQ originally placed his comment at the very top of this AfD. Ichormosquito 20:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete not notableBalloonman 20:58, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The article now has 6 reliable sources, not counting the Australian ones: The New York Times, The New York Post, CNET, Newsweek, and two stories from the Associated Press. Going is quoted in each.  Their publishing dates run from September to the end of February, and they were published a good amount of time away each other.  Unlike some other YouTube celebrities, Going has received sustained news coverage.  I also tried to make the opening less spammy.  Before they see video links, readers must get through a description of him first.  I added some more details from primary sources, as well. Ichormosquito 03:36, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Here are some titles these six sources throw at him: "one of best-known members", a possessor of "Internet fame" "Video Star" "prominent figure of the YouTube community" and "YouTube Celebrity".  Also, the description of his fans at the YouTube gathering in the CNET article goes some way to proving Going has a "cult" audience, per BIO, if his 33,000 YouTube subscribers, what CNET refers to as a "regular audience", aren't convincing enough in themselves. Ichormosquito 07:10, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I got the "33,000" from YouTube, not the CNET article. Ichormosquito 07:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment I just found a link to a CNET news blog story called YouTube hosts New Year's Eve Bash. Quote: Special video messages from YouTube celebrities, such as Boh3m3, Smosh, Terra Naomi, Renetto, Chad Vadar, and The WineKone, along with artists from WMG labels Atlantic Records, Warner Bros. Records and Warner Music International will be featured on the home page.  According to Going at http://www.moviepicturefilm.com/inter.php?itemid=1162, he got paid for this, which might help him pass Notability (web)The content is distributed via a medium which is both well known and independent of the creators, either through an online newspaper or magazine, an online publisher, or an online broadcaster  YouTube is certainly a well known medium, and this New Years promotion, plus Going's connections with the YouTube staff, http://www.moviepicturefilm.com/inter.php?itemid=1162 says he is in regular contact with a high ranking employee, argue against his output's being, from WP:WEB Trivial distribution such as hosting content on user-submitted sites.  The CNET link is another source, anyway.  Also: if we delete Ben Going, he would be the only "YouTube celebrity" on that link's list without a Wikipedia page, not that "well there are other pages like it" is the most substantial argument. Ichormosquito 17:31, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment And here's a link to a joint Coca-Cola and YouTube press release for a promotion similar to the New Years one, this time for Christmas and sponsored by Coca-Cola. Again, "boh3m3" gets a mention.  Quote: For the first time people will be able to send their own personal videos as a holiday greeting card online. Visitors can share their holiday spirit by uploading their own videos, customizing video greetings created by popular YouTube personalities, Geriatric1927, Boh3m3, TerraNaomi, Renetto, TheWineKone and LisaNova, or sharing holiday-themed videos from Coca-Cola including clips from vintage Coke advertisements. Another link to back it up: http://www.onlinereporter.com/article.php?article_id=8392 I think this feeds into my WP:WEB argument pretty nicely.  Going mentions this instance as a time where YouTube paid him at http://www.moviepicturefilm.com/inter.php?itemid=1162, as well, along with the New Years instance.  This was before YouTube implemented its YouTube partnership program, of which Going is a member. Again, everyone on this press release's list of "popular YouTube personalities" has a Wikipedia page, again, not that that is the most substantial argument.Ichormosquito 17:42, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I'll incorporate these into the article ASAP. Ichormosquito 17:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment These sources also work to argue for WP:BIO's Commercial endorsements of demonstrably notable products, especially the Coke one. Ichormosquito 17:58, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Google news turned up this, which references Going's involvement with savetheinternet.com, but I haven't paid to read the article yet. Quote: ''In a one-minute, black-and-white, tech-age public service announcement, personalities demand "Keep your Internet free." But the ad in support of Net neutrality was not produced by the Ad Council, hasn't been broadcast on television and doesn't include Hollywood stars. A 21-year-old waiter from Huntsville, Ala., Ben Going, wrote...
 * Newsday (New York), BUSINESS & TECHNOLOGY; Pg. A51 October 10, 2006 BY RICHARD J. DALTON JR. STAFF WRITER 1459 words Ichormosquito 02:14, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Here's the whole Newsday story, provided by Free Press: Grassroots Movement Wants Laws to Keep Big Media from Controlling Internet The story gives him a hefty amount of coverage. A description of his video provides the lead in, and the story returns to him for this: YouTube appears to be the perfect forum for raising awareness about the issue, says Going. Fans of the site are among those worried that telecommunications companies and cable providers could try to stifle the growth of online competitors.  Going represents the potential risks these sites pose to cable companies. He not only posted a video supporting Net neutrality — he hardly watches television. “I look at so many videos online, and that’s where I get the brunt of my entertainment,” he said.  Unless someone else wants to, I'll incorporate this and the holiday promotional stuff as soon as possible. Ichormosquito 02:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment This quote is particularly interesting:  With more than 464,000 views by YouTube users, the video demonstrates how the seemingly obscure topic has transformed into a grassroots movement that claims its goal is to keep the Internet free from interference by telecommunications giants. Ichormosquito 03:01, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment - Two sentences is not "a hefty amount of coverage". cacophony ◄► 03:36, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Did you read the article? His video was the impetus for the story, and got more than "two sentences".  I don't want to argue with you anymore.  Ichormosquito 04:02, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment He got two sentences, and the impetus for the story was net neutrality, not Ben Going's video. cacophony ◄► 05:13, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You're lying. Stop trolling. Ichormosquito 06:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Ichormosquito your comments and accusations personally I find embrassing, hurtful and disturbing. It's becoming abusive and unwarranted. This entire topic needs expert attention and review for TOS Sexyorge 13:47, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree with Sexyorge. Ichormosquito has been nothing but hostile to pretty much anybody who voted for this article to be Deleted. This user has made many unfactual statements about me in a rather uncivil way. I also think this topic should be reviewed for TOS. --Mikeskehan 14:16, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete doesn't pass WP:V, WP:WEB, WP:RS. Block all the puppets. -N 15:15, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Change to keep, just needs a touch of work. -N 15:59, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. The verbiage needs to be brought more into line with WP:NPOV, and the YouTube videos need to be stripped out of the references, but article style is not all that relevant to a deletion discussion.  The main question at AfD is, "Can the article be saved?"  This article's subject has coverage in multiple independent, reliable sources, and is thus notable.  I see no major problems involving WP:BLP in the present version of the article.  That's all there is to it.  Oh yes, and block all the puppets.   --Dynaflow   babble  15:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - POV is not an issue for deletion and the article is reliably sourced. Baka man  15:28, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep The deletion review gave general support for Ichormosquito's rewrite. It's clear the subject has received some attention from the mainstream press so I see no reason to deny on WP:WEB/WP:BIO grounds. There's plenty of sourcing, which meets WP:V as well. While the current article may be a little too fawning for my tastes, this relative deletionist (hell, I prod2'd & twice db-repost'd the prior incarnations of this article) smells something fishy with this AfD... &mdash; Scientizzle 15:38, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - the extensive coverage of this topic in reliable sources as well as the subject's acts make it clear that this is an appropriate topic. The article clearly passes the relevant policies in that regard. The sourcing and neutrality seems pretty good to me, too, so I see no reason we need to delete this. Mango juice talk 15:39, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Administrative note: I've blocked the following accounts as obvious throwaway accounts created specifically to participate in this AfD:
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * And I'd recommend a checkuser after the discussion closes to mop up the rest of the likely sockpuppet or meatpuppet accounts, assuming they have influenced the final decision to some extent. MastCell Talk 15:44, 20 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. Not every person who occasionally gets interviewed by reporters passes our notability criteria, and this one doesn't. It appears that he is not the subject of multiple (or any) non-trivial, reliable, third-party sources (or, in the current lingo at WP:N, the coverage is not "significant" with respect to him). In other words, it appears to be impossible to write a comprehensive, neutral encyclopedia article on M. Going. So where'd this great article come from? I checked every reference. Almost the entire article is either verified from sources that are unreliable (e.g. a Youtube channel, a blog, a press release, or an interview with M. Going himself: ref #'s 2, 4, 9-11, 13, 15, 17-19, 21-23, 25-28); or original research gleaned from the references (ref #'s 3, 6-8, 12 14, 24). The only content that is properly sourced is sourced to ref #'s 1, 16, and 20, all of which are about something other than Going and are trivial with respect to him. Pan Dan 16:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Once notability is established, WP:V can be met by primary sources, which includes press releases, videos and interviews (blogs should go, as should any OR). If three mainstream media sources present this guy as a well-known figure, even if Going isn't the sole or main subject of the article, that (along with Youtube rankings and such) is a sufficient sum assertion of notability to meet the guidelines, IMO. Of course, that's a matter of opinion, but that's what consensus-seeking is for... &mdash; Scientizzle 16:17, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, the NYT source says that Going "creat[ed one of] YouTube's most popular channels." And the AP says that Going is "one of the best known members of the YouTube community." However notability is neither fame nor importance. Even if the NYT came right out and said that Going is "notable," that would not show that he is notable is the sense we mean on Wikipedia. Notability on Wikipedia has to with sufficient quality, quantity, and depth of coverage to write an encyclopedia article. It doesn't have to do with pronouncements by anybody (even a reliable source) that something or someone is "notable." Pan Dan 16:35, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Pan Dan's Google News search found a source I hadn't seen, not that it contains much I couldn't find in the Newsday one. Maybe a quote.  http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2006/10/02/slayers/index.html  Ichormosquito 16:31, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.