Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bengali Hindus


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. I must disregard almost all "delete" opinions because they do not address the only reason conceivable, under Wikipedia guidelines and practices, why we would delete the article about this topic: that there aren't sufficient reliable sources to write an article about it. Instead, most "delete" opinions appear to be founded on arguments that are are not relevant for Wikipedia's purpose, such as personal experience or political and cultural concerns particular to the region. To be fair, many "keep" opinions also fall squarely into WP:ATA territory, but several "keep" opinions have argued, without being refuted, that this topic is covered in reliable sources. Any content deficiencies, or differences in opinion about whether Bengali Hindus are in some sense a distinct group, can be resolved by editing the article based on consensus.  Sandstein  11:38, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Bengali Hindus

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Bengali Hindus are only a religious group within the people who are ethnically and linguistically Bengali. So creation of a page with such nomenclature is violation of fact and only uphelds communal tone which must be avoided in Wikipedia Naved77 (talk) 06:49, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2013 December 9.  — cyberbot I  Notify Online 07:01, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you Mr. Naved, I have been fighting to make this page unbiased and opbjective for long. But the single contributor in favour of this article whop also created the page never heeded to any of our logical arguments. Nopw it is hightime that this parochial communal article be deleted. RegardsUnmesh Bangali (talk) 07:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * I think this utterly bitterly communal and biased article shall be immediately deleted. Reagrds Al-minar (talk) 09:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 08:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 08:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bangladesh-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2013 (UTC)


 * delete - Bengali Hindus are only a religious group within the Bengali peoples. Not an individual ethnic group. - Rahat | Message 16:08, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep The article is well sourced if there is editing issue that can dealt within the article.Please WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not argument and to say it should deleted because you feel it is  communal to have a article like this is not a reason to delete. Separate religious groups speaking the same language do have separate articles there is no policy which says they cannot.Further there is substantial Reliable sources for this topic.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:36, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Pharaoh. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:31, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * delete The article deliberately proclaims a minority religious section of Bengali community as a separate ethno-linguistic entity which is height of fact twisting. Murad67 (talk) 09:24, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * delete Per Naved77, Rahat and Murad67. Hossain Akhtar Chowdhury (talk) 10:26, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep The group is really influential and nice article too. Obvious Keep. Bladesmulti (talk) 13:13, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep, but in its present form, this is a horrible Hindu nationalist article. Obviously we can have pages on ethno-religious groups like Arab Christians or Iranian Jews. To have separate pages detailing the demography and traditions of Bengal's eclectic religious communities will only strengthen the cultural coverage of WikiProject Bengal. I suggest Bangladeshi wikipedians create pages on Bengali Buddhists, Bengali Christians, Bangladeshi Ismailis, Bangladeshi Adivasis etc. Bengali Muslims, who are the world's second largest ethnic Muslim group, also requires a demographic page, like Arab Muslims.--Bazaan (talk) 13:46, 12 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep This article does NOT attack or slander anyone else-all it does is express the identity of a given group. While it is true that Bengalis are a linguistic group,there is more than sufficient difference among Hindu Bengalis and Muslim Bengalis to warrant a separate discussion along the religious lines. As for any eclectic coverage, I am all for it.Such articles PROMOTE diversity and do not condemn them.Ultimately, wikipedia is about the expression of this diversity of the human experience.I agree with the last comment that there should be a separate article on Bengali Buddhists and Bengali Muslims also.This way we can conserve the unique identities of each such group for the posterity to marvel at. Editing an article is okay but to propose to delete an article on an ethnic group [even if it be a religious subgroup within that group ] is nothing but intolerance and a form of imperialism.  Skylark2008
 * Yes, the article does not slander or attack. However, we have a long history of edit wars over historically inaccurate and biased undertones, pushed by users such as Mr. Bengali Hindu. But anyways, this can indeed be a wonderful article. As a Bengali, I've always wanted to see our unity in religious diversity reflected. It's something sorely missing in Wikipedia.--Bazaan (talk) 01:56, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * We got so many philosophies right here.. Lol. Bladesmulti (talk) 02:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)


 * delete This article does not articulate about Bengalis adhering to Hinduism as a religious identity. Had it been the case there would have been no issue at all about it. But the article incorrectly portrays Bengalis like us who follow Hindu religion as a separate ethno-linguistic entity different from our Muslim brothers. That's totally unacceptable and for this the article needs to be deleted from Wikipedia for the sake of objectivity and truthfulness. RegardsUnmesh Bangali (talk) 10:26, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Brother, you seem to visualize Bengali Hindus merely as Bengali speaking people who adheres to Hinduism. If it were so, then there would not have been any difference in the language, food habits, customs and traditions between Bengali Hindus and Bengalis Muslims. West Bengal and Bangladesh would have been in one country. Isn't it? BengaliHindu (talk) 11:09, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Unmesh Bangali, you are confusing petition online with wikipedia. Bladesmulti (talk) 09:07, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep Bengali Hindus are a distinct ethnic, linguistic and religious group. Those commenting above that Bengali Hindus are only a minority religious group within the Bengali speaking peoples tend to forget that the Bengali speaking population is not a politically united population. Majority of Bengali Hindus reside in India and majority of Bengali Muslims reside in Bangladesh. Not only the religion, but customs, language, history and political aspirations differ greatly between Bengali Hindus of India and Bengali Muslims of Bangladesh. Its not only that Bengali Hindus are different from Bengali Muslims. They are also distinct from Assamese Hindus and other Hindu ethnic groups in India, even though they might speak the same language for e.g. Assamese or Hindi. Ethnicity is not only based on language. If so, why would Rohingyas be a separate ethnic group from Bengali people? Why would Bosniaks be a separate group from Bosnians? BengaliHindu (talk) 10:59, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 00:26, 16 December 2013 (UTC)


 * keep. the subject is searchable, verifiable. arguments to delete have no relation to wikipedia policies about deletion and the problems mentioned (if they are valid) may be solved by editing.- Altenmann >t 08:46, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep I have not read the article, but have looked into some of its references. I find the topic meets notability criteria, and the article has got some references. There are other articles of similar nature, such as Arab Christians. Logically I see no reason to delete this. I feel the nomination is more based on sentiment than reasoning. However, if the article does contain material that is offensive, that must be deleted.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:22, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks Dwaipayan, but the single dominant creator of the page uses Biased, Questionable & Self-published sources to twist the objectivity in his own opinion's favour which is against Wikipedia Policy. He proclaims parochially that the great rulers of Pala Empire were all Bengali Hindus while anybody with slightest knowledge of Indian History knows that they were actually not only Buddhists but also great propagators of Buddhism. Shame on such deliberate fact twisting ! Regards Naved77 (talk) 09:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, I started reading the article after your reply. Yes, definitely there are lots of problems. This is the version that I read. I may do some editing, so giving the permanent link of the version.
 * For example, in the lead, "The Bengali Hindus along with other related ethno-linguistic groups constitute the vast majority of Hindus" It is not clear what are "other related ethno-linguistic minorities". Vague, needs to be removed.
 * "...and adhere to the Shakta and Vaishnava traditions of their native religion Hinduism." I am not sure if Bengali Hindus adhere only to those two sects.
 * "During the Sena period the Bengali culture developed into a distinct culture within the Hindu civilization" This is also problematic. What is really meant by Hindu civilization?
 * "In the subsequent centuries of foreign occupation and struggle for independence, the Bengali Hindu culture remained dormant, only to revive itself in the 19th century in the form of Bengal Renaissance. " Which foreign occupations? Seems British occupation, as it mentions "struggle for independence". Other than British rule, I don't know if any other rulers can be called foreign. There is a long time between Sena dynasty and British rule. Also, "the Bengali Hindu culture remained dormant" I am not sure if that is valid as well. The Bengali Hindu culture, Muslim culture, taken together as "Bengali culture", survived and developed I guess during all those years. Also, "Bengal renaissance" was not merely revival of Bengali Hindu culture, even though majority of the persons involved were Bengali Hindus.
 * "The migration continued in waves through the fifties and sixties, especially during the genocides of 1950 and 1964." What genocides in 1950 and 1964?
 * "From the sixties, the Bengali Hindus began to emigrate to the West, mostly to pursue higher studies and later to the Middle East, in search of lucrative careers" Sentence reads as if there was mass immigration, which is not the case. It was pretty much in sync with immigration from many other states of India, and modest, at best.
 * " In India, Bengali generally refers to Bengali Hindus" Possible, but unlikely and doubtful. I could not access the full text of the article.
 * "The ‘other’ is usually identified as ‘non-Bengali’, a term that generically refers to the Indian people who are not Bengali speaking, but sometimes specifically used to denote the Hindi speaking population." I did not understand this. What is "the other"?
 * " Bengali Hindus were a seafaring people" Probably an exaggeration. Needs better reference.
 * " By the 3rd century B.C.E. they were united into a powerful state, known to the Greeks as Gangaridai, whose military prowess demoralized Alexander from further expedition to the east." Really, military power? Needs ref.
 * The article does not mention Pala rulers as Hindu.
 * "The next attack on the society came from the Islamic missionaries" Very doubtful, and also communal in tone.
 * "during the reign of Alivardi Khan the inhuman taxation and frequent Maratha Empire raids made the life miserable for the ordinary Bengali Hindu people" Ok, agreeable. But one may think, reading this sentence, life became miserable for only Hindus. I seriously doubt that. Life became miserable for common man, whether Hindu or Muslim or any other religion.
 * "famine of 1770, in which approximately one third of the Bengali Hindu population died of starvation.". Is that stat correct. I sort of remember one third of Bengali population died (not sure).
 * Anyway, there are probably more. Yes, I agree that there are many prose/data problem in this. Even then, I feel the topic meets notability criteria, and article should be kept.--Dwaipayan (talk) 18:33, 17 December 2013 (UTC)


 * delete I am reading and editing this article since inception. Once the creator and single dominant editor of the article desperately tried to include Bengalis adherents of other religions i.e. Buddhists, Jains etc as Bengali Hindus which we could amend due to some Wikipedians vigilance. He wrongly incorporated in the article that Bangladesh is an Islamic Republic, in reality which never was. He said that Sylhet is a Hindu Bengali Majority District which it never was. He still says  Cachar is a Bengali Hindu majority district where in reality majority of Bengalis of Cachar are still predominantly Muslims.  In essence the article still has a communal tone due to this particular editor's adamancy. Such propaganda oriented fact twisting communal hatred evoking article should not remain in Wikipedia. Regards & Thanks Al-minar (talk) 06:04, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Before putting forward your baseless accusations and personal attacks, please get your facts right. Muslim Population by District in Assam] says Cachar has 36% Muslim population.BengaliHindu (talk) 11:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Ha Ha Ha ! It appears that you are indeed unknowingly supporting my position brother BengaliHindu . Cachar has a Bengali population of around 65 to 70% and rest are Assamese & tribals. If out of this 36% happens to be muslim than how can Cachar be a Bengali Hindu majority district? Come up with simple math brother. BTW, I never did any personal attack, don't be agitated just be polite. Furthermore can you deny you once proclaimed in this article that Sylhet is a Hindu majority district and that Bangladesh is an Islamic Republic which were utterly untrue and the article was corrected against severe negative criticisms? Regards Al-minar (talk) 05:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * delete This article has been here for a long time, almost entirely edited by one dominant user - his prolific work is all for one theme, arguably an original research. There are a lot of citations - presented in skewed way. This article tries to establish that Bengali Hindu is a ethno-religious group, while no Bengali has the slightest idea that, "Bengali Hindu" is a different group - something other than "Bengali"s. I am a Bengali, Bangladeshi, Muslim - and in my entire life span I have never heard of such term - other than here. There is absolutely no concept of Bengali Hindu other than that, they are Bengali and they adhere to Hinduism. It is true, there are some occurrences of the phrase is literature, but they never indicated to a different ethnic group. If Bengali Hindu exists as a nation/group/ethnic community or any "thing" then there also exists, Bengali Muslims, Bengali Christians, Bengali Buddhists and so on. As a matter of fact, none exists. So, this entire piece of misleading, twisted, communally toned, alleged original work shall not be a Wikipedia article. --»  nafSadh did say 17:59, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you say that no Bengali has the idea that Bengali Hindus are a different group? You, from the perspective of a Bengali Muslim from Bangladesh, might not have heard of the term, however, that that does not mean the non-existence of the group. Google Books has more than 13,000 references to the term. If you care to read them you will realize that the Bengali Hindus have been spoken of as a different group. In that sense Bengali Muslims too are a different group. In Assam, for example, the Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims are considered separate groups. There is nothing communal about it.BengaliHindu (talk) 11:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - Bengali Hindus are only a religious group within the Bengali peoples. It is not an individual ethnic group. Further explaining the logic is Bengali Christian redirects to Christianity in Bangladesh and we already have article on Hinduism in West Bengal and Hinduism in Bangladesh and Bengali culture and this article is made up of content from this three. Bengali Hindus are identified as Hindus only - it is not a specific caste or sect. I have myself spent three decades of my life in West Bengal and as rightly sadi by nafSadh   never heard of such term. Bengali people who follow Hinduism generally identify themself as Kayastha, Baidya, etc, which are their caste identities. This article is WP:OR, POV  and misleading article. -Jethwarp (talk) 02:46, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Other problematic article worth deletion are Bengali Hindu wedding unreferenced when we already have Bengali wedding and Bengali Hindu diaspora. We do not have articles like Gujarati diaspora, Marathi diaspora, Bihari diaspora. Even Bihari Muslims article should be deleted going by same logic. Going by the same logic I have also nominated Surti Muslims for deletion today. -Jethwarp (talk) 02:54, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The article clearly passes WP:GNG and is clearly verifiable .There is substantial Historical and scholarly research which clearly see Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims as separate communities particularly after 1905 political division even if one is not going before that. The Partition of Bengal which was on religious lines principally Bengali Hindu and Bengali Muslim which is a very major event in Indian history namely Partition of Bengal (1905) and  Partition of Bengal (1947) into what is now Bangladesh and West Bengal and even the borders were drawn on religious lines. This is clearly not Original research and whether WP:otherstuffexists or not is not a reason for inclusion or deletion. Delete objection to the piece rests upon not notability or what policy they want to be the article to be deleted but rather on factual accuracy, which is an editing matter . Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 11:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep on the basis of notability I would entertain arguments that this article is so misleading that it should be blown up because some people commenting are suggesting as much, but actually, I think that there is enough good information here to pass any kind of deletion review. The article has a lot of problems, but I find that it does present sources which establish Bengali Hindus as a distinct people who are not only Hindus, not only Bengalis, and not a mere intersection between Hindus and Bengalis. The Partition of India did a lot to establish this group as distinct and for the purposes of Wikipedia review, resulted in the creation of many books and academic papers on the concept and identity of Bengali Hindus.  Blue Rasberry    (talk)   15:09, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Per Pharaoh 101.62.56.215 (talk) 15:23, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The partition of India or Bengal took place on religious line. It took place also in western front in Punjab but we do not have articles like Punjabi Muslims and Punjabi Hindu redirects to Hinduism in Punjab. Bengali Christian also redirects to Christianity in Bangladesh. Show me the sources from Anthropological Survey of India or Government of India websites or any other author on anthropology who mentions Bengali Hindus as separate caste. As per my earlier comment also we already articles of Hinduism in West Bengal and Hinduism in Bangladesh. Nor is there anything like Bengali Muslim, if you say partition took place between Bengali Hindus and Bengali Muslims - Jethwarp (talk) 16:25, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Hinduism in West Bengal and Hinduism in Bangladesh are not exact same as Bengali Hindus. This is because, there are sizeable non-Bengali Hindu population (including tribals) in West Bengal and non-negligible tribal Hindu population in Bangladesh. Further the Bengali Hindus are also present in sizeable numbers in Assam, Tripura and other Indian states where there are other non-Bengali Hindu groups as well. Most importantly, the article is about the people and not the religion. The Bengali Hindus are not just a religious denomination, sect or caste. They are a group.BengaliHindu (talk) 17:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Please check this article in International Journal of Anthropology. The study has been done only on Bengali Hindus as a group. You can find many similar articles. BengaliHindu (talk) 18:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)


 * keep ultimately what matters is not people's opinions on whether this is truly an ethnic group or just an invented grouping, it passes GNG with multiple sources discussing this as a group. There are clearly issues with the article but deletion is not the solution.--Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:04, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Mr. Obi-Wan Kenobi, As I said earlier the article is misleading because it portrays Bengali Hindus as a different ethnicity(note: not different religious or cultural group) which is violating Wikipedia policy because Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda. This article is orchestrating a propaganda which is highly objectionable and not reflecting majority's view. So it only deserves deletion. Regards Hossain Akhtar Chowdhury (talk) 08:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * delete It has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that the creator and single most dominant editor of this article is ill motivated by his desire to create division between the ethnic Bengalis. Politically Bengalis may be divided between Bangladesh & India, nationality wise they may be Indian or Bangladeshis, religion wise they may be Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist or even atheist, but ethnically they are one and only Bengali. The article definitely has a tone which denounces this reality by proclaiming Bengali Hindus as a different ethnic group than Bengali Muslims or Bengali Christians. Even after series of edits by many the article is still not devoid of communal fact twisting efforts. Murad67 (talk) 05:08, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I am changing my original position, which was out of a desire to see the cultural coverage of religion in Bengal. In retrospect, I believe that can rather be better covered in articles such as Hinduism in Bengal or Islam in Bengal, similar to Christianity in China or Islam in Ethiopia (you don’t have articles on Chinese Christians or Ethiopian Muslims). It is certainly wrong to claim that Bengali Hindus are an ethnicity. Bengalis (Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists and Christians alike) have one of the most homogeneous cultures in the world. Wikipedia should not lose itself to religious nationalist thugs.--Bazaan (talk) 06:53, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment The following scholars have considered the Bengali Hindus as an ethnic group.
 * Tapan Raychaudhuri, Professor Emeritus at St. Anthony's College, Oxford, UK in his article Mother of the universe, Motherland.
 * Mohammad Mozammel Huq of Rajshahi University in his paper published in the Pakistan Journal of Psychological Research.
 * Sanghamitra Niyogi, professor of Sociology at University of California in her paper Immigrant Sub-National Ethnicity: Bengali-Hindus and Punjabi-Sikhs in the San Francisco Bay Area.
 * I'll keep on adding to the list of 'religious nationalist thugs'. It is a really nice epithet given by our fellow Wikipedian. BengaliHindu (talk) 10:16, 20 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment To some of the users here, stop using partition as an excuse. Both Bangladesh and West Bengal are secular entities. And for those of you who seem to know little historical detail, the 1905 Partition of Bengal was not based on religious lines, but on administrative purposes, as according to the British themselves.
 * Not a single mainstream authority in India or Bangladesh recognizes these preposterous claims. If Wikipedia is going to consider every god damn piece of sectarian scholarship as notable, then the encyclopaedia does become very cheap.--Bazaan (talk) 07:51, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

comment Participation in deletion related discussion from unregistered users are not accepatable by Wikipedia policy. Hence such participation is to be ignored. RegardsHossain Akhtar Chowdhury (talk) 09:14, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I fail to see any reliable source that says Bengali Hindus are ethnically distinct from Bengali Muslims, Buddhists or Christians. Besides, I fail to understand the logic behind using Partition of India as a reason to distinct the Bengali Hindus from Bengali adherents of other religions. Despite the partition, there are many Bengali Hindus living in Bangladesh as well as many Bengali Muslims living in West Bengal, going through the same cultural and social life as their other fellow countrymen, which shows they are ethnically same. Also, the partition had the same effect on the Punjab region as that of Bengal, yet we don't see any articles like Punjabi Sikhs, Punjabi Muslims or Punjabi Hindus. Merging the contents with Bengali people and Hinduism in Bangladesh can also be a good option. --Zayeem  (talk) 15:26, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Subject is notable. 103.242.197.12 (talk) 17:55, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Bengali Hindus are a distinct socio-religious group dominating the Indian state oF West B engal and also having significant presence in Assam, Tripura & Jharkhand and also some provinces of Bangladesh. Bengali muslims are basically converts from this group still maintaining some traditions linking them to their Hindu heritage.Unknown.citizen12 (talk) 18:12, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Subject is notable and verifiable.
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.