Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Berlin Debating Union


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. there is no consensus as to notability here. No consensus normally means a keep. However, no one has demostrated that the content of the article is verifiable from reliable sources. WP:V is a core policy - and thus despite the lack of consensus I am deleting this, without prejudice to recreation if reliable sources subsequently emerge. Scott Mac (Doc) 15:30, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Berlin Debating Union

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Page for a non notable University club. Club does not meet WP:CLUB, can’t find obvious third party WP:RS ref’s nor can I find page to best merge this into. Codf1977 (talk) 19:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. The organisation has hosted major international and national debating events. A Google search throws up several external websites which make reference to the organisation. Purple Watermelon (talk) 19:47, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - but is the club it's self notable ? and I could not find any WP:RS ref's, otherwise would have added. The article does not provide any encyclopaedic value Codf1977 (talk) 20:00, 24 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment Delete, accepting the translations below as evidence that there is not significant coverage. This is all university level stuff, "major international events" is an overstatement. Debating blogs/sites are not reliable sources, but there seems to be a fair bit of German coverage. Is anyone able to determine whether the union is covered significantly or incidentally? --Mkativerata (talk) 22:35, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Using Google Translate, the first two of the links on that page quote "Patrick Ehmann from the Berlin Debating Union" when talking about Debating - and do not establish notability, the third is a Press release and the forth would appear to be from "UniSPIEGEL" (a uni paper ?), which is an article on debating, listing at the very end that a debate is happening under the heading "In early July: German Universities" - "The Berlin Debating Union depends on 7 and 8 July ....." followed by a "for more information contact ...." para. I will look through more of these as I get time. Codf1977 (talk) 07:14, 25 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have now been through all of those pages and none of them provides more than a passing reference to the club, none of them get even close to showing the club meets WP:CLUB, all they confirm is the existence of the club and/or that the club is part of the university, and one page that they are organising a national event. When you look at the likes of the Oxford Union or Cambridge Union Society or Monash Association of Debaters each of them demonstrates notability, through history, World Championships, notable past members etc. none of this is the case for the Berlin Debating Union. Codf1977 (talk) 09:32, 25 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. It would be great if the article could be expanded with further information that can be referenced to external sources. Right now, the article is a stub, but that's not a reason to delete it. Enough information can be found in external sources to prove that this is not a hoax and that the information in the article is accurate. The Union has notability as the former host of the European continent's regional university championship and Germany's inaugural national championship. It may not be as notable as the Oxford or Cambridge Union, but that doesn't mean it's not notable at all. Dorange (talk) 12:59, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment You say the Union has notability - but it does not meet the General notability guideline (WP:GNG) which say If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. it goes on to say "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material. - if you or anyone can find such material (as I can't, even in German), I will happily withdraw the nomination. Codf1977 (talk) 13:55, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I have again gone looking for WP:RS on The union, with out any joy. I have also re-read Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)[WP:ORG] and found this under No inherited notability : An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. Codf1977 (talk) 14:22, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To suggest that the Berlin Debating Union mereley has a vague association with the events in question is unfair. They hosted the European Universities Debating Championships (one of the largest and most significant debating tournaments in the world, and undoubtedly the biggest in Europe), and also played a key role in founding Germany's national championship as its inaugural host. Purple Watermelon (talk) 13:15, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * But, at the risk ore repeating myself, where are the WP:RS that support that, they do not appear to exist - to quote Mkativerata (above) This is all university level stuff. Can anyone establish with WP:RS that this is anything more than a Univeristy Club and that it meets WP:CLUB, WP:UNIGUIDE or WP:GNG.Codf1977 (talk) 14:27, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Key point: they hosted the European Universities Debating Championships. It is a tournament that any University student can enter. Big deal. I'd question the notability of the Championships themselves, let alone the institutions that merely host it. --Mkativerata (talk) 18:11, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree. In the field of debating, university level competitions are the highest level competitions you'll find anywhere in the world. And this is the recognised championship for the whole of Europe. And university level competitions in many other fields are highly notable too (look at college sports in the US for example, even though in those sports, unlike debating, there are higher levels of competition). Dorange (talk) 19:23, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Every University debating tournament is open entry. It's all University students and, with some very limited exceptions, the only place it seems to get covered is on blogs and websites dedicated to University debating. There might be an argument for some large championships to have articles here. But not single-University clubs like this that have completely negligible coverage and whose claim to notability (the only claim made in this discussion) is its association to certain tournaments. Consensus here seems to have universally recognised that winners of debating tournaments are not notable: see Articles for deletion/Erik Eastaugh (2nd nomination) and Articles for deletion/List of debaters. Individual clubs should not be treated any differently unless in very special cases. --Mkativerata (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that not every university debating society should have a page. But I do think this is a more deserving case than most. It's a city-wide Union that covers several universities, and has hosted competitions beyond the ordinary run-of-the mill events. It's hosted the biggest tournament in Europe, and additionally hosted its country's very first national championship. Dorange (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not see that, in and of it's self, hosting an event, notable or not, automatically confers notability on the host - the fact still remains there are no WP:RS that can confer any form of notability on the BDU. It is not a matter of should it be notable rather is it notable - and at this time I am unable to find anything that suggests that it is. Codf1977 (talk) 23:29, 27 January 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  —Codf1977 (talk) 14:46, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: The above debate shows notability - Ret.Prof (talk) 23:29, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment How exactly does a 'Articles for deletion' debate confer notability ? No one has been able to find ANYTHING that shows the BDU meets or get close to meeting WP:GNG. Codf1977 (talk) 07:29, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Cunard (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Relisting comment: Relisted to generate more discussion about how Berlin Debating Union passes Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Cunard (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - In response to Purple Watermelon's point with regard to the fact that the BDU hosted the European Universities Debating Championship in 2006 - if you look at the Past championships list you will see that all the hosts are listed as either the City or the University - NONE are listed by the Club, Union or Society associated with the City or University with the single exception of the 2006 championship in Berlin. If you look in to the history of the page to here you will see that it was listed as being hosed by Berlin Univerity and it was only with this edit that Batmanand changed it to the Berlin Debating Union. To further illustrate this point if you look at 2004, the list says hosted by Durham University as opposed to Durham Union Society.  Codf1977 (talk) 09:27, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * That's because since the championship's relaunch in 1999, 2006 was the only occassion on which the event was hosted by an organisation associated with several universities in one city rather than an organisation attached to single university. (If the Wikipedia page wrongly stated that the 2006 event was hosted by Berlin University in the past, then it's good that it's been corrected.) So this is yet another unique thing about the Berlin Debating Union. Purple Watermelon (talk) 15:14, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't confuse being unique with. notability Codf1977 (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment Is there any reason to assume this is more notable then any otehr university debating society?Slatersteven (talk) 14:08, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there is definately reason to believe that the Berlin Debating Union is more notable than the average university debating society. It's not a society attached to a single university, but a combined society drawing its members from university institutions across Berlin (and there are very few other debating societies for which this is the case). The Union has not only hosted the biggest touranment in Europe, but also the host of the very first national championship in Germany. Those are significant points of interest which are not true of the vast majority of university debating societies. Purple Watermelon (talk) 15:14, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not a society attached to a single university, but a combined society drawing its members from university institutions across Berlin (and there are very few other debating societies for which this is the case). - The same is true of the Oxford Union or Manchester Debating Union to name two others. Both allow members from other University's in the same city - so not really unique. Codf1977 (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Union has not only hosted the biggest touranment (sp) in Europe - Not exactly a major event, looks like when they did, it did not even make the local papers in Berlin. Codf1977 (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Also I seem to have found that Koc University Debate Club hosted the 2007 event. The 2001 event was not held at the University of Ljubljana but at Portorož, on the Adriatic coast of Slovenia. So it would seem that not being held at a university is not unique. By the way are there any sources that they hosted the event? Their site say they hosted it it 2005 oddly the World Debating Website says it was 2006. So this seems to be an unsourced claim that they hosted it.Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No - I have tried to find anything that supports it's notability and gnews or gbooks gives nothing (except a few in passing comments when refering to a person from the BDU) - the only thing is offered is that it once hosted the European Universities Debating Championship - if you care to look at Google News for "European University Debating" you get No hits and only one hit when you look at goggle books. Codf1977 (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete: WP:CLUB. I don't believe that the above discussion demonstrates the notability of the subject. The page is unsourced. Google Books and Google Scholar return no accessible results for either "Berlin Debating Union" or "Debattierclub zu Berlin". I translated and skimmed through all Google News Archive results. Most discuss German debating competitions in general and only contain fleeting references to the club or some of its members (mainly Patrick Ehmann and Jens Fischer); none discuss the Berlin Debating Union in any detail. Pruned Google searches for "Berlin Debating Union" or "Debattierclub zu Berlin" return about a hundred and twenty unique results with no apparent signs of nontrivial significant coverage by reliable secondary sources. — Rankiri (talk) 17:47, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep: The European Universities Debating Championship, which the Berlin Debating Union hosted in 2006, is by far Europe's biggest and most significant debating tournament. Hammersville (talk) 15:03, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - But how does that address the issue of the absence of any WP:RS to show that the BDU meets the WP:GNG Codf1977 (talk) 15:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I have asked for a source for this claim that they hosted the event in 2006, can we have one please?Slatersteven (talk) 15:13, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

I am tempted to ask, how was the 2006 event funded ? was it funded by the members of the club or, by one or other of the Universities in Berlin? - But this just prolongs this distraction; Can anyone show how hosting or organising any Student event (be it European or National) confer notability when WP:ORG sates in clear terms that No inherited notability : An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it. ? Codf1977 (talk) 16:38, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - it's in the illustrious company of the Oxford and Cambridge Unions in terms of being one of the world's few debating unions for multiple institutions in one city. And it's hosted the European Universities Debating Championships. There may well have been quite a bit of news coverage of this at the time, but unfortunately not all publications put all their articles on the web and then leave them there for several years. As has already been pointed out, the claims to notability in this article are clearly not a hoax. It needs work on better sourcing (which is unfortunately not easy for an article of this nature), but not deleting. Singopo (talk) 11:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - Please don't miss-understand the point about debating unions for multiple institutions - I only checked three unions - Oxford Union, Manchester Debating Union and Cambridge Union (I could not see it confirmed about Cambridge Union aloowing members from outside Cambridge Uni) so please do not assume they are the only three. My overall point is that I don't even think their claims to notability meet WP:GNG and without WP:RS we have no way of knowing.Codf1977 (talk) 13:52, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm not misunderstanding your point. I'm fairly certain that the number is in fact slightly more than 3, but only slightly. Most university-level debating societies are linked to a single university. Among the very few that have wider memberships are some of the most prestigious ones like the Oxford and Cambridge Unions. (The Cambridge Union Society's website says that it's open to students from both the University of Cambridge and Anglia Ruskin University). Singopo (talk) 14:07, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Fiar enough, but I don't agree that having a wider than average membership criteria makes them in any way notable, in the same way as hosing an event does. Other than the requirements in WP:GNG we need to be looking for a distinguished history, number of World Championships won, notable past members etc. none of this is there for the BDU - not even a unsuppoeted claim, let alone supported by any source reliable or otherwise. Codf1977 (talk) 14:21, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete No sources have been provided to back up any of the claims of notability. Most of the claims seem to apply to other debating societies as well (even if we accept them as being true). OR and promotional in nature.Slatersteven (talk) 14:31, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Which of the main claims to notability do you think most other debating societies share? In fact very few other debating societies are (a) former hosts of the European championships, (b) the hosts their country's first national championships, and (c) draw their membership from various universities in a major city. Singopo (talk) 14:49, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I did not say that most debating societies share those traits, I said that most of the traits (still no sources I see) are shared by other debating societies.Slatersteven (talk) 14:55, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * But only a very small number of other debating societies can claim even one of this Union's claims to noatbility, let alone all 3. Singopo (talk) 14:57, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Do you ave a source for that claim? It is for you to demonstrate this groups notability not for us to disprove it. If it cannot be shown to have hosted the 2006 games then that makes it no different from all the other societies that have no hosted it. If it canot be shown that it is allmost unique in allowing members from more then one accademic institution to be members then that will not be notable. Which leaves us with one national event. Hrdley notable.Slatersteven (talk) 15:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I do think that these two refs World Debating Results and Past Europeans taken together do indicate that the BDU hosted the Euros in '06 - assuming that Reliable_sources/Noticeboard accepts that those sites are WP:RS as they are clearly closely linked to the subject and are primary sources [Sorry as pointed out below that is not the case and I was guilty of the sin of Synthesis.  Codf1977 (talk) 12:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC)]- however that still does not change the fact there is NO evidence that they meet the WP:GNG (as WP:ORG sates that No inherited notability : An organization is not notable merely because a notable person or event was associated with it.) . Codf1977 (talk) 15:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Just to be clear - I 'am NOT saying that I think an individual occurrence of the European Universities Debating Championships is notable. Codf1977 (talk) 15:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The two sources say Berlin, and that is all they say.Slatersteven (talk) 16:01, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * My mistake you are indeed correct - it does say Berlin but the hyper-link is to the BDU website. However, I do think we are straying off the point now into did or did they not host them - even if they did that does not make them notable. Codf1977 (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * They beat the MÜNAZARA KULÜBÜ (KU debate club)to get it. So this raises the question, are all events in fact hosted by a club?Slatersteven (talk) 16:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Usually such events are hosted by a university, with the university funding the event and debating society of that university doing the organisational work on the university's behalf. (The debate club referred to by Slatersteven above is that of Koc University in Turkey.) So the 2006 Euros were unusual in that they were organised by debating union that was not specifically tied to a single university. And it's not the only significant event they've hosted, so their claim to notability is not derived from a single event. Dorange (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know how the 2006 tournament was funded, but my guess would be sponsorship. To my mind, being the body that actually ran an event goes beyond merely being associated with it. Dorange (talk) 16:56, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I disagree with that view. Look at it a different way, the event has to be hosted so the fact it is hosted is not unique so it follows that if you host the event that is also not unique. Also where would this stop - is the building that the event took place also notable for hosting the event ?  The fact still remains that for all of this, the only claim to notability is for hosting an event so notable no Secondary sources can be found supporting it, one so notable the BDU's own website cant even get the details correct. Codf1977 (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * As a follow up to my last point as Mkativerata pointed out above with the link to Articles for deletion/Erik Eastaugh (2nd nomination) which showed that the consensus was winners (of world championships in that case) "aren't notable per se", how can a cub who just hosts an event (of lesser standing) be notable - or are you saying that hosting is more notable than being a member of a winning team ? Codf1977 (talk) 11:56, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Was it held in the societies premisies?Slatersteven (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I voted in the Erik Eastaugh AfD, and I voted to delete. But I don't think we're comparing like with like here. Erik was a member of a team, and I don't think every individual member of a winning team necessarily becomes encyclopaedically notable in their own right just because they were a member of that team. In most cases, organisations are more significant than their individual members. That doesn't mean that every organisation in the world should have a Wikipedia page. But in this case, this organisation has more than one claim to notability, and these make it more significant than the average debating society. I accept that the article needs developing, but I think the organisation's claims to notability (taken collectively) make it notable enough for Wikipedia. Dorange (talk) 14:23, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I take it from that that it wa not held on thier premisies.Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There seem other errors on thier website, it would seem that they either are not that botherd with accuracy, are being dishonest or are claiming notability for something not considerd notable by the body concearned. I do not know which, as such I belive that any claim they make cannot be considerd reliable without out side sources.Slatersteven (talk) 15:44, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think one typo on the union's website completely undermines their credibility. And I see those in favour of deletion are very conveniently finding reasons to remove all the sources that have been added rather than allowing someone who comes across this deletion debate to see them and decide for themselves whether or not they think they are sufficient. Singopo (talk) 12:34, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It most defiantly under minds the creditability of the website to be a source of anthing though. As for you claim "conveniently finding reasons to remove all the sources that have been added" - I dispute that - I am not aware of any source reliable or not, primary or otherwise that shows the Berlin Debating Union hosted the event in 2006 that has been removed. But that is not the issue of this AfD - the issue is does the Berlin Debating Union meet the WP:GNG or WP:ORG as far as notability and as of yet not a single person in favour of keeping the article has provided anything that shows it does. I concede that the 2006 EDC was probably hosted in Berlin - may be even by the BDU but that in and of it's self does not make it notable - please show us the "Significant coverage" (as mentioned in the WP:GNG) that the BDU has had - dispite almost two weeks of looking no one has managed to find anything. Codf1977 (talk) 13:05, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * It Shows they do not check thier facts, they also calim they took part in 2001, but a list of teams here [] does not list them as haviing taken part. Some one is wrong, but untill it can be established who then both sites must be considerd dubious as to accuracy.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Lets re-jig this slightly. Is there any third party RS reporting this as notable?Slatersteven (talk) 14:16, 4 February 2010 (UTC) Comment - So as I see it the whole claim of notability for the BDU rests on the claim it hosted the European Universities Debating Championships in 2006, a claim for which no source can be found to support it (there are sources that say it was hosted in Berlin but none that say by the BDU, the BDU site says 2005). I dispute that even if there were WP:RS to support the claim, such a claim is evedencde of meeting the WP:GNG as it would be one of inherited notability and a weak one at that as there are little or no WP:RS to show that European Universities Debating Championships are very notable in there own right, let alone a single event in the series. Codf1977 (talk) 12:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * If you believe the sources that were added to the page are so unrelaible, why don't you leave them there while this deletion debate goes on and let anyone who goes to the page see them. If they agree with you that the sources are unreliable, they can then come to this page and say that they agree with you. Instead you're trying to give the impression that there are no sources at all by removing them – and I think that shows that you lack confidence that your own argument about the lack of reliable sources will stand up to scrutiny. Singopo (talk) 14:23, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The source I removed did not refer to the BDU it referd to Berlin only As such it did not back up the claim that the BDU hosted the event. It was misleading to try and use a source that did not explicitly say what it was being used to source for.Slatersteven (talk) 14:32, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am sorry I seem to have missed something, can you please post here the refs you think that have been deleted that shows the Berlin Debating Union hosted the event in 2006 ? Codf1977 (talk) 14:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Comment Also we would need RS showing that some one other then the BDU considerd this notable (even if it can be proved they hosted it), not even the European Universities Debating Championships seem to say it is.Slatersteven (talk) 14:22, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.