Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bessarabian Soviet Socialist Republic


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was keep, withdrawn by nominator; explanation of apparent contradiction provided. Opabinia regalis 00:02, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Bessarabian Soviet Socialist Republic

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I nominate this article for deletion as hoax or non-notability. In the article is claimed that a Bessarabian Soviet Socialist Republic was proclaimed in 1919 with capital in Odessa. However, Odessa is not and was never in Bessarabia, a republic with Odessa as capital is impossible to be named Bessarabian SSR, it could be named Odessa SSR, NovoRussia SSR or anything else. In 1919 Bessarabia was already under the control of Romania (Romanian Army entered Bessarabia in January 1918). In 13 November I asked from the creator of this article, User:Mikkalai, sources regarding this republic (see talk page of the article). Mikka answered that Bessarabian SSR was a "government to be" or a "planned government", giving only a vague refference. Also Mikka checked and confirmed that Soviet encyclopedias don't mention this Bessarabian SSR, fact that I consider as an indication that this Republic never existed. Maybe it was a wild dream of some Soviet activists from Odessa, but it didn't become true and even Soviet Encyclopedias considered this dream as non-notable. A Bessarabian Republic existed however, it was proclaimed in December 1917 and united with Romania in 1918, see Upson Clark - The creation of Bessarabian Republic, however, this was not a Soviet Republic, but an anti-Soviet Republic (and it was not in 1919, but in 1917-1918). We have in Wikipedia an article about this true Bessarabian Republic under the name Moldavian Democratic Republic - this Republic really controlled Bessarabia. Current article about possible (not proved and not notable) dreams of Soviet activists from Odessa is creating confusion with the real Bessarabian Republic - the Moldavian Democratic Republic. MariusM 01:39, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * As a surprise for you, there indeed was Odessa SR in January-March 1918 ~! `'mikkanarxi 05:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * In fact I was already thinking about getting rid of these ephemeral republics replacing them with a single Short-lived governments in post-revolution Russia or something like this. As standalone, these microstubs like the discussed one are quite useless. `'mikkanarxi 05:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be a good idea. However, in order to include Bessarabian SSR in the list, should be proven that it was really a republic, not a dream of some Soviet activists.--MariusM 13:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * By definition, everything historical and verifiable deserves mentioning, including "dreams of Soviet activists". We have way much wilder things in wikipedia, e.g., autocunnilingus, which survived two votes for deletion. `'mikkanarxi 02:32, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, we have many wild things in Wikipedia, it should be notable for inclusion. I will not be against this article if it would be clearly explained in it that Bessarabian SSR was not a real republic but a dream or desire of some Soviet activists in 1919 in Odesa and Tiraspol. I know that Odesa and Tiraspol are not situated in Bessarabia, you know it, Bakharev also knows that, but many Wikipedia readers don't know and will be confused.--MariusM 13:59, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete, as nominator.--MariusM 01:46, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * After last changes made in the article, which explains that this Bessarabian SSR was not a real republic but only a plan of Soviet authorities, I withdraw my proposal for deletion.--MariusM 07:37, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ukraine-related deletions.   -- Slgr @ ndson (page - messages - contribs) 01:52, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep, I think if the republic was not hoax, it is notable. The republic is mentioned, e.g. on Hrono.ru that is a reasonably reliable source for the Russian history see Article Timeline of decay of Russian Empire. The site may explain the Odessa thing. According to them:
 * 5 May 1919               Provisional Workers' and Peasants' Government of Bessarabia founded in exile at Odessa.
 * 11 May 1919               Bessarabian Socialist Soviet Republic proclaimed at Tiraspol as an autonomous part of the Russian S.F.S.R.

Thus, it seems that Odessa was not the capital but a seat of a "government" in exile Alex Bakharev 03:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The 2 sources contradicts each other (capital Odesa or capital Tiraspol?), however should be mentioned that Tiraspol, like Odesa, is NOT part of Bessarabia. Soviet government didn't recognize the union of Bessarabia with Romania which took place in april 1918, this is why it organized propaganda and even some military provocations against Romania, however it didn't manage to take control in the province. No source explained which was the teritorry of Bessarabian SSR. I believe reason is that this self-proclaimed government in exile (at Odesa or Tiraspol, no matter) never managed to control any part of Basarabia. A google test with Bessarabian SSR gives many results, however the big majority of them are about Moldavian SSR created in 1940, from part of Bessarabia and part of Moldavian ASSR, a different story. This Bessarabian SSR is mentioned in google test only in Wikipedia and articles copied from Wikipedia (like answers.com, references.com) and only the 2 sources mentioned by Bakharev are independent sources. It seems for me that there were plans of Soviet government in 1919 to occupy Bessarabia, however only in 1940 Soviet Union managed to fulfill this goal (when was founded Moldavian SSR, which is a different story). I believe article need to be either deleted, either rewriten to explain that Bessarabian SSR was not a republic, but a dream of some soviet activists in 1919.--MariusM 13:23, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Article is well sourced but unlikely to expand much more. Bulk of its content is mentioned in Bessarabia article already, but the nominated article's mention of Russian SFSR means that there should also be a mention of it in the latter article as well. Redirect to Bessarabia after adding info to Russian SFSR. B.Wind 03:51, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I've checked the Bessarabia article today and it include same data as the stub we are talking about, without refferences, and same issue remains: Bessarabian SSR from 1919 was proclaimed outside Bessarabia, it was a dream or desire of soviet activists, not a real Republic. Be aware of possible confusions with Moldavian Democratic Republic, which really existed in Bessarabia in 1917-1918, but was not a Soviet Republic (see refference given above - Upson Clark), Moldavian SSR which really existed as a Soviet Republic, and included the major part of Bessarabia, but was founded only in 1940 and Moldavian ASSR, which also was a real Soviet Republic but founded only in 1924 and which didn't include any part of Bessarabia.--MariusM 13:31, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


 * keep notable and fine historical article. afd nominators should be more familiar with what they are nominating.--Buridan
 * Weak keep it appears to have been a real historical entity, although some of the facts are foggy. TSO1D 15:03, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep seems to be historical fact. It's also relevant in showing the imperialistic plans of the Soviets (creating a phony entity with the same name as the neighboring territory in another country). -- AdrianTM 17:11, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Merge probably with Bessarabia, ensuring that the citations are transferred. The discussion above makes it clear that there is something to write about.  The question is whether it was too ephemeral to deserve an articel of its own. Peterkingiron 23:48, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete - there seems to be little evidence that such a thing really existed. Dapiks 01:53, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Weak keep I do dimly recall reading something about this about 20 years ago, which was well before the Internet and when we had to make do with real references. DrKiernan 15:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep per Alex Bakharev. &mdash; coe l acan t a lk  &mdash; 05:00, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.