Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beth Avraham Yoseph of Toronto


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was keep. Mailer Diablo 15:42, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Beth Avraham Yoseph of Toronto
This page has been recently deleted within the last 48 hours as a speedy for copyvio; it was speedied through admin intervention in a regular AfD. The original AfD nom, which I support, is non-notable. In addition, Gregorykay (the main contributer), has repeatedly deleted a second speedy notice claiming that this is a different page. Adding to AfD for discussion Hobbeslover 01:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete As nominator Hobbeslover 01:27, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Do NOT Delete There is NO REASON THAT PAGE SHOULD BE DELETED! Im just annoyed because everyone all day is saying to delete it just because at the beginning it was copyright infringement but it no longer is. Just say why it should be deleted, is there a reason? Or you just saw that someone else nominated it for speedy? Because this article is diffrent one from the one that was originoly nominated. Sorry if i sound rude i am just a bit annoyed--Gregorykay 01:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment There are still bits and pieces that are copyvio. The sentence structure has been changed but elements remain of copyvio (check it against the website). - Hobbeslover 02:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep (see below) Delete - promotional ad for a business. WP:NN, WP:RS, WP:NPOV Crum375 01:40, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * CommentDon't count me i already voted but in rebuttle this is not a buisness it is a non-profit organization. It is a Synagogue, it is not a buisness looking to advertise.--Gregorykay 01:41, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * a. Non-profit != non-business; and b. Most synagogues definitely do collect money and advertize. Crum375 01:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak delete Individual churches/synagogues/mosques are generally non-notable (WP:NN, perhaps specifically WP:CORP) except where special circumstances entail (e.g., prominent leader, notable attendees, historical significance, very large congregation); I don't see such circumstances here (there is, I imagine, an argument to be made that each individual religious house of worship is as notable as any individual school; inasmuch as it seems well-settled that schools [at least of secondary level] are notable per se, I can imagine a reasonable argument for keep). Joe 01:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC) Keep I concurred in Crum's note that the synagogue would be notable were it one of the largest in North America and were we able to verify such size per WP:V and WP:RS; I am convinced that such verification is now possible, and so the synagogue, to my mind, meets with WP:NN. Joe 20:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment It is the largest Synagogue in Toronto.--Gregorykay 01:50, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * That would probably be notable, if it comes from WP:RS Crum375 01:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It comes from the synagogue website bayt.org--Gregorykay 02:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Can you point me to it? (I couldn't find it on the site) - and BTW WP:RS means some neutral reliable source would have to say so. Crum375 02:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * http://www.bayt.org/ at the top under about us, Our history
 * Sorry - I read again the entire history and probably missed it again :P - can you quote something that I can search? (not that it matters - it's POV etc but for the record) Crum375 02:31, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I thought you were asking were i got most of the information from, i didn't realize you were specificly asking about where i found it is the largest synagogue in toronto. As for that information i dont really have a source, as an active member within the Toronto jewish community it is a known thing. But i guess that is not a reliable source.


 * keep and massively cleanup We tend to keep houses of worship, as long as there's some small claim to notability. (As an NP patroller, I can assure you this isn't even the most tenous claim to notability I've seen this week). The page currently has a lot of self-promotion. If we can clean it up using WP:RS and only verified info, it should be okay. (note to anyone who wants to clean it up: take a look at other articles in Category:Places of worship in New York City - there are some in there which are very good.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bachrach44 (talk • contribs) 02:04, May 22, 2006 (UTC).


 * Weak Delete It seems to be kind of non-notable to me. If it gets kept, it needs to be NPOV'd and cleaned up. --Flyne 03:12, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Page needs cleanup, but I see no reason to delete it.  Mostly Rainy 06:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as the user who AFD'd the original (as "BAYT"). The content is written in a somewhat more encyclopedic tone now, but still has significant lack-of-notability, POV, and sourcing issues. Zetawoof(&zeta;) 07:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep - I attempted to clean up and copyedit and called it a stub. It could become an article if independent sources are provided. ←Humus sapiens ну? 09:13, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * There are still no reliable neutral sources citing this specific institution's notability. That should be the focus. Crum375 11:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. Personally I think all religion is nonsense, but that doesn't mean religious buildings and the groups associated with them are not notable. Markb 10:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, if cleanup and verified. --Ter e nce Ong 11:48, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and cleanup. -- S iva1979 Talk to me  13:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment This Is from the synagogue website so it is POV but...." Beth Avraham Yoseph of Toronto (BAYT) One of the largest orthodox synagogues in North America." it says this under links on this page http://www.bayt.org/calendar/ . But i think this site would not be POV it's neutral I think http://www.cjnews.com/pastissues/02/nov28-02/community/community3.htm it was an article for the synagogue in a newspaper. And here; http://www.jewishtorontoonline.net/home.do?ch=events&state=organizationSearch&Submit=show&organization=1060 is another site with some info --Gregorykay 14:56, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * IMO, a reference which is a catalog listing cannot vouch for 'notability', as the criteria for inclusion are unclear. Much better would be articles mentioning the institution (not necessarily in a complimentary fashion). All that's needed is notability (or notoriety as the case may be), IOW 'claim to fame' mentioned by a reliable neutral publication - i.e. why is it special. Crum375 15:37, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * But the newspaper article would be reliable and near the bottom it says "It has since grown to become one of the largest Orthodox synagogues in North America", that is its claim to fame
 * That was my point, but the catalog reference is not useful and the article as of now still reads like an ad. The first sentence should probably say "...one of the largest Orthodox synagogues in North America...", and there should be reliable neutral references backing it up. Crum375 16:30, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * ' Delete - pretty nn as far as I can see.  Páll  (Die pienk olifant) 20:08, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * If it can be shown (via neutral verifiable source) to be one of the largest of its kind in NA, I would consider it notable for that. Wouldn't you? Crum375 20:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep, has been successfully turned into a decent article. - SimonP 21:58, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Maybe we are looking at different articles. The one I see right now is just an ad for a business. No claim to fame (e.g. one of largest per above), nor citations of neutral publications justifying such claims. As it stands it is still WP:POV, WP:OR, WP:NN to name a few, i.e. delete candidate. Crum375 22:02, 22 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Sorry im kinda new to wikipedia, how long until the process is over, and if its decided that the article will be kept, will these tags be added to it;  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gregorykay (talk • contribs)
 * The AfD was created on the 22nd of May, and will close on the 27th of May, unless an administrator closes it early. Zetawoof(&zeta;) 03:54, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * kk thnx--Gregorykay 04:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. One of the largest Orthodox synagogues in North America. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Much better now, good job. It would be nice to have the source of the 'one of the biggest' available online. I just changed my vote to Keep (on trust). Crum375 20:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep per SlimVirgin. Well on the way to becoming a great article. -- JJay 20:44, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve.--Shlomke 02:33, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
 * keep please it is becoming a great article now Yuckfoo 19:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete as per nom. --Strothra 19:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.