Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Beurger King Muslim


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was no consensus to delete, so article kept. Johnleemk | Talk 12:05, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

Beurger King Muslim
Utterly non-notable French halal fast-food. The article was promptly deleted when it appeared on fr:. _R_ 02:24, 22 November 2005 (UTC) he supports notability as a criteria for inclusion. Jimbo appears to endorse a criteria of verifiable notability. Bwithh 19:29, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep - Notability is not part of deletion criteria and this is verifiable, and important. Trollderella 02:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * This is an encyclopedia, not the Yellow Pages, so notability is an inherent part of inclusion standards. --Calton | Talk 05:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Erm. It's really not. Inherent, that is. Trollderella 19:13, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is inherent. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an indiscriminate collection of information. This is policy here. Andrew Levine 00:21, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * If notability was inherent, why would Jimbo be against it? Kappa 00:44, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Jimbo is not the ultimate decider of Wikipedia policy. Also he has written elsewhere that
 * Delete. This seems to be a single restaurant, not a chain. fr.wikipedia is right to delete it; this article can never be anything but a stubby "This restaurant exists!" - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:46, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete - if anywhere, it should exist on the fr: wikipedia. Appears to be a fairly new single-location fast-food restaurant.  Delete for now, but if it expands, then an article wouldn't be out of the question, I guess. --bbatsell |  &laquo; give me a ring &raquo;  02:56, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Supprimer there are plenty of restaurants which copy Western restaurant franchises (as well as actual Western restaurant franchises) in the Middle East and other parts of the Muslim world (Kentucky Fried Chicken in Pakistan for instance). This is purportedly the first in France, but that's not really notable. delete as non-encyclopedic content Bwithh 04:17, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Neutral. It seems to have gotten the attention of the BBC, USA Today, Christian Science Monitor, and The New York Times (no cite, I read the article in the International Herald Tribune). Whether this makes it notable, just a media flash-in-the-pan, or a short-shelf-life handy-dandy journalistic metaphor is an open question. Also, 908 Google hits for the exact phrase. --Calton | Talk 05:41, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak delete, per fr: deletion. NSLE  ( 讨论 + extra ) 05:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete nn. Media attention does not ipso facto make a subject encyclopedic. Eusebeus 07:51, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete irrelvant, unencyclopedic --RaiderAspect 10:19, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak keep, being the first of such a restaurant in France is notable in my opinion especially with the press the Muslim community got there. Still, since it's one single place, it's borderline. - Mgm|(talk) 10:47, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect to Islam in France (or, better yet, an article that deals with the context I have discussed below) or Keep as a fork for a more elaborate article. This is getting attention in the European press and I could see someone googling this term or even searching for it in wikipedia.  People writing term papers on the general topic might need information on this specific item.  this is part of a backlash against Coca-colonialism among European Muslims. I am not sure, however, that the individual restaurant is not notable enough for an article, but however the term is notable enough to be searched by some and merged by us into the before mentioned article. Youngamerican 17:11, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure folks in the US appreciate what this is, and what it means in Europe. Just my $.02. Trollderella 19:03, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Good point. Keeping this article around helps fight systemic bias on wikipedia and helps shed light on the frustrations felt by minority French Muslims. Many Americans feel that France has a coddling attitude towards those of Arab extraction due to the government's opposition to the Second Iraqi War. In reality, this could not be further from the truth. France has no form of affirmative action and many French Arabs are mired in unemployment and are victims of a form of unspoken racism.  While one burger joint outside of Paris might not be notable in and of itself, the underlying social context is a valuable piece of the puzzle in gainging a grain of understanding of the racial crisis that has come to a head in modern French (and European) society. Youngamerican 20:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * I am European. Write about the underlying social context then rather than the feelgood slow news day burger joint story.Bwithh 21:21, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Agreed. If the only thing that can be said about this is the context it fits into, and the context is VASTLY more important, simply make an article on the situation instead of the object. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:27, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep, passed WP:CORP. Kappa 19:59, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * weak keep...i agreed entirely on Youngamerican's original vote of merge and redirect, but im also somehwat swayed by his later comment. but only somewhat.  jfg284 you were saying? 20:40, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * 1) Keep Astrotrain 22:15, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep per media attention and Youngamerican's point about CSB. Smerge with appropriate target. A Man In Black and RaiderAspect have convinced me, sort of.  Unfortunately, I can't think of a better recipient of the smerging than Islam in France, which I don't think is the right place for this to end up.  Does anyone know how large the restaurant is, or if there's multiple locations (doesn't sound like it, given when it opened, but still), or any other information? If it's transcended "restaurant" status and become a phenomenon or landmark, that'd make things different.  The Literate Engineer 23:01, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Despite Youngamerican's points, I'm going to stick with delete. While this might deserve a mention/exploration in another article, especially if it's part of an overall trend, it doesn't deserve an article of it's own. --RaiderAspect 03:23, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Cute play on words but not any more notable than arab-owned supermarkets in France that refuse to sell alcohol. Looks like more of a backlash to unemployment than to Coca-colonialism, particularly as Coca Cola features prominently on the menu. -- JJay 03:45, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm pretty sure they serve Mecca Cola, not Coca-Cola, but I will double check. Also, I'm going to add some context tomorrow when I have access to an internet connection that is not crash-tastic. Youngamerican 04:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment I am no longer going to add context to this article, since I am starting to feel that this entry should be merged into another article or kept as a fork. Youngamerican 14:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment: Please do check, the French articles[] I looked at all mentioned Coca Cola, but they could be wrong I suppose. Note as well that the owners have prominently stated that they are non-political and are trying to make money. As businessmen, they saw an open market niche for halal fast food, but rather than wanting to dismantle McDonald's, a la José Bové, they want to be McDonalds's. France, of course, representing one of McDonald's strongest international markets with high demand from all segments of the French population and no major competition except for Quick (restaurant chain) (Wendy's not present, Burger King withdrew years ago). I would be very cautious in reading Beurger King Muslim as a sign of anti-Americanism among Les Beurs, who celebrate American rap and the NBA. The real question, as stated by the nom, is why is Beurger King Muslim more significant for the English-speaking world than the French?-- JJay 08:05, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks for the link to the French article. I was going on what I had heard in a news report a couple of months ago and could not find a citation either way in English, Spanish, or Dutch (the languages I could read. Just a quick point however; I never argued that the Beurs were "anti-American," but rather anti-globalization. These two terms are increasingly used interchangebly, which is somewhat misleading since, as you pointed out, many people that are opposed to the policies of the American government and MNCs are infatuated with the popular culture of the US. When pressed for an answer, even many Iranians, for example, will admit that they do not hate Americans, but rather the government and globalism. There are even Americans playing in the Iranian basketball league (no citation, but a search of the BBC will lead to the artilce. But I digress. As to the question of the French wikipedia's choice to delete their article, I fully respect their choice for their project, but I do not, in good faith, see how it bears on this particular discussion (see my user page for more on that), but I would, of course, welcome their imput on this discussion, if they so choose. I am, however, starting to lean back towards my "merge and redirect" vote as a result of the source you have provided, with the possibility of this article being recreated as a fork in the future if needed.  I also see the logic of A man in Black's point about writing an article on the Euro-Arab trend of recreating elements of American popular culture without negative aspects of globalism. Does this sound like a good idea to others? What would be an appropriate title? Youngamerican 13:36, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Further comment. The NY Times article [], -where BKM's owner says It's business... We're here to make money- points out that this is not the first restaurant like this in France, the honor going to MkHalal in Lyon. -- JJay 08:24, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. Can't think of a good reason to delete this. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:59, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect. It would be good info for an article about Islam in France or as an example in an article about halal/zabiha food. --JuanMuslim 1m 00:34, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep valid topic --The Brain 11:15, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
 * [[Image:Symbol_oppose_vote.svg|15px]] Delete, nn local restaurant. MCB 21:22, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
 * on 17:22, 6 August 2005 he article which WAS about the French law forbiding the veil in state owned buildings and started it and here is how it looked then --The Brain 15:36, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Comment: I've removed the article from this page- anyone can see it by checking the original edit on article page. No need to paste it in here. -- JJay 15:57, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete Izehar 16:38, 27 November 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.