Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Most of the delete arguments are by assertion and fail to spell out under policy why this individual is nn and the keep arguments are policy grounded Spartaz Humbug! 05:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Non-notable religious person. 1st article was deleted, and the 2nd was no consensus. Subject is not notable, and should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 04:32, 11 June 2010 (UTC) Please see http://www.purebhakti.com/teachers/bhakti-yoga-masters/778-srila-bhakti-prajnana-kesava-gosvami.html and http://www.bvml.org/SBPKM/index.htm for articles by and about this famous saint in our line. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.13.155.77 (talk) 17:05, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Why is this famous guru in our Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition a "non-notable religious person"? He gave sannyasa to the very notable A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami, who brought the Hare Krishna movement to the Western countries and made it a household name, and was also the guru of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja, who aged 89 is still travelling the globe preaching, and has many thousands of followers. To us, and also objectively speaking, he is in no way "non-notable".
 * Reply If this person is "famous" in your tradition, please provide multiple independent reliable sources that say why he is notable. The above links are not reliable sources, and the person is not notable. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Independent, reliable references to that are already provided in the article, and there're more sources out there.Gaura79 (talk) 10:24, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Nothing has changed since the last nomination. There're reliable, independent sources covering the subject of the article.Gaura79 (talk) 09:38, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply While there are sources for the article, there are not multiple independent reliable sources that attribute notability to the subject. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:44, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry to dissapoint you, but there're multiple, reliable sources covering Bhaktiprajnana Kesava. Some of them are cited in the article. He's notable as a Gaudiya Vaishnava saint, as religious leader, as a founder of a notable religious institution, and as a sannyasa guru of Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.Gaura79 (talk) 10:29, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:42, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete The individual is still not notable. Culturalrevival (talk) 02:36, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is he not notable, may I ask you? Is it because he's covered in multiple, reliable sorces and is a Gaudiya Vaishnava saint?Gaura79 (talk) 09:50, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - nothing changed from previous AfD, but I will change the vote to Strong keep when the recent book gets published by a reliable publisher. There should be some additional biographical coverage in that study.  Wikid as&#169; 13:46, 12 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment The idea that this person is a Gaudiya Vaishnava saint is just not true. There is no evidence for this. His was an associate of Bhaktivedanta Swami, and a mention on that page is enough (and its already there). This person is not notable, just an associate of one, and that is why the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 18:40, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * I do not think that argument is based on being a GV saint. There is no such a thing as GV saint really as it is a borrowed concept. No cannonization and no process to confirm or not a person to be a saint. Obviously one can be notable guru without being a saint. Wikid as&#169; 19:43, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * But this guru is not notable. He is associated with a notable person, but that does not make him notable. Aside from this association, there is nothing notable about this individual. That is why the article should be deleted, especially as the info is already on that page already. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 21:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
 * However that is not what reliable sources say. While I agree that his notability is connected with being sannyasa guru of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami. Wikid as&#169;
 * He is not the subject of any reliable sources that treat him as notable. He is only discussed in sources as an associate of Bhaktivedanta Swami. There are no reliable sources that say he is a notable religious leader beyond that, much less a Gaudiya Vaishnava saint. As such, the article should be deleted. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 02:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * You keep repeating yourself and that is disruptive. We heard your rationale but the fact remains that he is covered by multiple reliable source with and without regard to Bhaktivedanta Swami being an associate or a guru. That is the definition of general notability, eg being covered by multiple reliable sources. It has nothing to do per se with being "Gaudiya Vaishnava saint". However that can be disputed if you look at these images of his murti being worshiped in public. . Is he not a deified person if his murti is worshiped? However being a saint or not is immaterial, the crux of the matter is the fact that he is satisfying the general notability guideline. Wikid as&#169; 03:14, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Notability is not inherited. Bhaktivinode (talk) 03:16, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Notability in this case is not based on the fact that he is associated or worked with someone famous. But with the fact that he is covered in a multiple reliable sources. Wikid as&#169; 03:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And the notability being what? The only sources that talk about him fall within Notability is not inherited. Bhaktivinode (talk) 03:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * And you obviously did not read the article. Wikid as&#169; 03:39, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Please do not insult me. I have read both article and discussions. Still, the only sources that talk about this fall within Notability is not inherited. Bhaktivinode (talk) 03:45, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Apology if you felt insulted. But there are sources already cited in the article that do not talk about him only in his relationship with his sannyasa disciple A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Specifically citation 5 and 6. There is no reason to claim that it is inherited notability, however I agree that it is mainly because of A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that he is notable. Wikid as&#169; 03:59, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * These citations do not extend beyond Notability is not inherited. Bhaktivinode (talk) 04:07, 16 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Bhaktiprajnana Kesava was also a founder of a notable Gaudiya Vaishnava religious organization Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Massimo Introvigne in his book Enciclopedia delle religioni in Italia dedicated a whole chapter to describe the Italian branch, called Vaishnava Gaudiya Vedanta.Gaura79 (talk) 10:20, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply That is very misleading. First it is not a chapter - it is a listing of religious organizations in Italy, and this particular bio is of no importance there either. The text is over 1000 pages and the person is not mentioned. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 11:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * It is an entry in a major Encyclopedia in Italian language. It is of importance here, because it turns out that Bhaktiprajnana Kesava was also a founder of a notable religious organization. And yes, it is an article in an Encyclopedia and it is exclusively dedicated to the Italian branch of the organization, founded by Bhaktiprajnana Kesava in India some 70 years ago.Gaura79 (talk) 12:55, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.