Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bhaktivedanta Narayana (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. It is clear that this article has serious issues that need to be resolved, but currently there is no consensus to delete the material outright. A few editors have proposed merging this material elsewhere to help alleviate notability concerns - whether the best option for the future of this information is to merge it or improve the standalone article is one that should be carefully considered by editors actively maintaining the article. Shereth 18:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Bhaktivedanta Narayana
AfDs for this article: 
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Non notable religous leader. Part of non notable religious institute. Sources quetionable at best. Sources to establish notability are lacking entirely. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 00:57, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Hinduism-related deletion discussions.   —Ism schism (talk) 01:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Non notable from non notable institution. Questionable sources at best. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 01:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I fail to see how your argument is stronger than the last time you AFD'd this article. What's changed? Chopper Dave (talk) 04:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The article still does not state, much less prove, how its subject is notable - it only states that he is a "spiritual leader." Also the sources are not reliable. The monthly publication, Sri Bhagavat Patrika, is self published. (That this journal is a self publication was not pointed out in the last debate and was given as a reason for voting "Keep.") Also, the website used for the article Pure Bhakti, is also self published. This religious leader's guru, and his religious institute, are red links, as both are non notables. In all, the article still fails to have any reliable sources with information to meet Wikipedia standards for notability of people. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 12:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep per recent discussion in previous CfD. I don't think anything has substantially changed since then. The individual is mentioned in third-party works that are referenced. Yes, the article needs work, but I don't see deletion as the answer here. Good Ol’factory (talk) 22:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The references in which the subject is mentioned, aside from the self published ones, are concerned with the subject of ISKCON. These texts are about ISKCON. In passing, there is mention of Bhaktivedanta Narayana and his relationship with ISKCON.  If these references are accepted as reliable sources, then I can see how a Redirect or a Merge to the ISKCON page might be more appropriate.  Thanks.  Ism schism (talk) 18:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong delete This article has failed to establish notability and is an advertisement of sorts. It is impossible to account for all people named Narayana in India. Dozens of them are svamis, you will find it with the google seach for Narayana svami or Narayana Maharaja. Please also refer to WP:ENC. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT A FREE ADVERTISING SPACE. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT FOR UNSOURCED MATERIAL. Not a single claim or information in the article have sources and the whole article does not comply with WP:CITE guidelines, a search of reliable sources doe not support any of it. One can not rely on blogs or self published material to establish notability. All other references quoted are occasional and incidental, have nothing to do with the notability of the person and are often not from reliable sources and are not about the subjects notability.


 * Living persons bio must abide by:


 * Neutral point of view (NPOV)
 * Verifiability
 * No original research


 * This entry shows absence of all and thus should not exist. None are found that directly relate to the living person called Bhaktivedanta Narayana. He is mention exclusively in passing and number of hits does not warrant the inclusion.




 * MBest-son (talk) 14:17, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

*Delete Not notable. Culturalrevival (talk) 18:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC) 
 * Strong Delete. The subject, by himself, does not meet notability criteria. Shovon (talk) 19:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Jerry   talk ¤ count/logs 00:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions.  Jerry   talk ¤ count/logs 00:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per above. Bhaktivinode (talk) 01:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep, meets Notability basic criteria as the subject of secondary published material (see The Hare Krishna Movement: Forty Years of Chant And Change), and he is quoted in Light on Death: the Spiritual Art of Dying by Phillip Jones, to name a couple sources offhand. -- M P er el 02:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The subject of the book, The Hare Krishna Movement, is ISKCON (also known as the Hare Krishna Movement). In order for this reference to establish notablity on Bhaktivedanta Narayana, he would have to be the subject of the text - and he is not. He is only mentioned in a few pages out of this 448 pages text, which is on ISKCON. This article is lacking in references which cite him as the subject. These must be demonstrated, otherwise, the subject still fails even the basic criteria for notability. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 22:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment The references in which the subject is mentioned, aside from the self published ones, are concerned with the subject of ISKCON. It is important to point out that in these materials, he is only mentioned in passing - there is only mention of Bhaktivedanta Narayana and his relationship with ISKCON. If these references are accepted as reliable sources, then I can see how a Redirect or a Merge to the ISKCON page might be more appropriate. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 15:42, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Admin closing note Application of Notability Criteria:
 * A claim was put forward (by MPerel) that Bhaktivedanta Narayana has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. This is incorrect and he was not a subject of any such material and was only noted in passing. Thus Basic criteria is not met. Maybe such material exists in Hindi, thus subject should be part of Hindi Wiki. As far as English publications it is clear that the depth of coverage is not substantial, and multiple or any independent sources are not present that are needed to prove notability; trivial coverage of a subject by secondary sources is not sufficient to establish notability, and this is evident from the above searches. No other sources contribute towards proving the notability of the subject. The only sources are self-published and unreliable. Autobiography and self-promotion are not the routes to having an encyclopaedia article. As accepted the barometer of notability is whether people independent of the subject itself have actually considered the subject notable enough that they have written and published non-trivial works that focus upon it. Additional criterias are not applicable and no evidence of any of the same is found or can be found from any reliable sources in English. No works focus upon the subject. See: WP:INHERITED that provides cover for this policy and requres at best a redirect or merge to ISKCON that is the subjects inherited notability object. MBest-son (talk) 22:33, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Not notable per MBeston. Culturalrevival (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Per MPerel, Bhaktivedanta Narayana is the subject of part of a chapter, pp.37-39, subtitled Narayana Maharaja, in The Hare Krishna Movement: Forty Years of Chant And Change and is mentioned on pp138, 215, 249 of that book. One hardly needs a whole book on a person to prove notability!  In addition, cited therein are other works, like The "Routinization of Charisma" and the Charismatic: The Confrontation Between ISKCON and Narayana Maharaja -- Irvin H. Collins (Srila Das), which is chapter 13 of  an academic book published by Columbia University Press.  Just these two are sufficient, and high-quality, reliable sources. In addition, I note that the language of a source is irrelevant to its reliability and whether it can be used to prove notability.John Z (talk) 01:04, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * These are two sources, but they do not show the subject to be notable. One source is a chapter in a book on ISKCON, the other is a few pages in a book on ISKCON. Both of these two sources Do Not state that Bhaktivedanta Narayana is notable. It is important to note that these two sources only discuss Bhaktivedanta's relationship with ISKCON. If Bhaktivedanta Swami's relationship with ISKCON is notable then these sources could be used on the ISKCON page to discuss Bhaktivedanta Narayana's relationship with ISKCON. Thanks. Ism schism (talk)
 * As far as I understand it, I do not think your interpretation of the relevant guidelines is a common or standard one, or one which enjoys much support at Afd or elsewhere. Of course, if one subtracts whatever is notable about a person, including his relationships with other notable subjects, then one is left with nothing much. But this style of argument is a useless tautology. There is no requirement that a source state its subject is notable; that there is a substantial amount of material is enough. There is much more in each source - where this person's name is in the title - than usually deemed necessary.John Z (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep This is part of an ongoing campaign to discredit Srila Narayan Maharaja, The nominator 125.24.241.246 did so anonymously. To redirect his page to a page of his detractors at ISKCON is unacceptable. This article DOES have sufficient, and high-quality, reliable sources.Syama (talk) 03:13, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Note The main reference for this article, cited above, is provided from a chapter in a book on ISKCON called The Hare Krishna Movement. This link above, "Routinization of Charisma" is just one chapter in this book - and it is about ISKCON. Bhaktivedanta Narayana is only mentioned in this chapter - it is about one issue - Bhaktivedanta's relationship with ISKCON (for a specific period of time). References on this gentleman's relationship to ISKCON are not enough to establish notablity as long as the subject himself remains non notable. The subject is still about a non notable and sources have not been provided to show the subject's notablity outside of his relationship to ISKCON. If Bhaktivedanta Swami's relationship with ISKCON is notable then these sources could be used on the ISKCON page to discuss Bhaktivedanta Narayana's relationship with ISKCON as a section of the ISKCON page. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 12:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect and merge to ISKCON per above. Culturalrevival (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.