Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biblical Numerology (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was merge. There is clear consensus in this debate that this article does not meet Wikipedia's inclusion standards, though there is some divergence in opinion as to how best to handle it. For GFDL compliance, the article cannot be deleted now unless some of the text and history at Numerology is also deleted, as material from it was merged there on February 26. It could be history merged with that article, but there is considered opinion expressed below that it should exist as a redirect, if some disagreement as to what article is its best destination. On closure of this AfD, it will be redirected to Numerology and placed in Category:Redirects from merges. I do not feel that refashioning it as a disambiguation page adding other potential targets would violate the consensus of this AfD. --Moonriddengirl (talk) 15:36, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Biblical Numerology
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Appears to be an original research synthesis. Previous AfD resulted in no consensus, article has not been improved since, perhaps consensus can be reached this time. Shirahadasha (talk) 03:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions.   --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Smite as mostly synthesis and original research; very few, if any claims here, could easily be verified. Ten Pound Hammer  and his otters • (Broken clamshells•Otter chirps) 04:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Looks like I found my new project. There are very many notable and independent sources about Biblical numerology. It is a subject of some note in Abrahamic religious theology. I am going to completely rewrite it and source everything as I did with John Hick. Hazillow (talk) 04:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Forget it. I can't find anything objective on its history and I know I would probably have to end up citing some crackpot end-of-times website to get the article done. Don't we already have an article on the Bible code? That is all Biblical numerology is, basically. Nothing worth salvaging here, but if there is, rework into numerology or something, I guess. How discouraging. Delete. Hazillow (talk) 05:49, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have found one reference that may be of use to anyone wishing to salvage this article: http://philologos.org/__eb-nis/default.htm Hazillow (talk) 05:58, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Maybe Hazillow can turn this into good material, but as it is this is synthesis and original research, neither of which are very well done. Dgf32 (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete this violation of WP:NOR and WP:NOT. Sounds like a "sermon" gone wrong. (While in Judaism there is a legitimate field of Gematria, this is nowhere any way like it.) IZAK (talk) 05:56, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Per WP:NOR and WP:SYN.  Otolemur crassicaudatus  (talk) 08:11, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Save the best bits and redirect to Numerology. The references - including Britannica - show that this is a verifiable topic. The question is how best to deal with it. Deletion of valid and verifiable topics is inappropriate activity for an encyclopedia. I agree that the way the article is currently structured is not helpful to the general reader - and I understand there is a reluctance by editors to work on this. I will move the best bits to Numerology, and leave it up to the closing admin if the valid search term "Biblical Numerology" is best removed completely from Wiki or used to point to a section in the Numerology article which will deal briefly with the topic.  SilkTork  *What's YOUR point? 11:21, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * redirect to the most relevant location, and merge anything worth merging. Jon513 (talk) 11:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect; I would recommend either Gematria or Bible code as a target. Or this could be made into a disambiguation page that points to both of those two locations. *** Crotalus *** 17:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. This could be easily rolled into 'Numerology in the Bible' under the main articles for each, once it is properly sourced. MrPrada (talk) 18:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect. Notable subject, but as Crotalus pointed out, the content has already been covered in the Bible code and Gematria articles.-- TBC !?!  20:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Redirect No reason that "Biblical Numerology" should be a redlink, but this shouldn't exist as an article because of the OR problem. Nyttend (talk) 01:10, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - This is not purely WP:OR. This is a genuine theological subject.  It is most undesirable to merge it with Numerology to which it is currently a sub-article, as that would upset the balance of that article.  Equally redirecting to Gematria (an article related to Jewish theology, not Christian) or to Bible code which is (in my view) cranky.  This article is dealing with a legitimate subject, possibly one that some people will regard as slightly esoteric.  What is lacking is references and discussion of differing views on the significance of each number.  However warrants tagging for improvement, not its deletion.   Furthermore, I would suggest that the fact that the article has several times before been subjected to an AFD process without being deleted indicates that it should be retained.   Peterkingiron (talk) 20:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Convert to disambiguation page listing Gematria and Bible code as suggested by Crotalus above, and perhaps Numerology can be listed as well. -- M P er el 03:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:OR -- Alexf42 22:49, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep As noted above by Peterkingiron, Gematria really has very little do with the content of the article, as it is a completely different religion, so redirecting "Biblical Numerology" there is not appropriate. Bible code is completely different and unrelated to the content here, so that too, is not appropriate. Merging the content into Numerology will upset the balance of that article and give undue weight to the subject. So really, the only way to settle this is to improve the article by addressing the various issues it is tagged for, as well as referencing the content. I have taken it upon myself to improve the article (I've had the external links open in tabs since the nomination), however, I haven't been able to find time to commit myself to it fully just yet. It's not that I don't care about the state of the article (I do), but more time is needed to undertake something like this. Although the AfD is what brought me to the article, it is not a good approach to do nothing with it and nominate it every 4 months. AfD should be a last resort, and, really, although the article is in bad shape, it doesn't merit one. --Pwnage8 (talk) 00:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.