Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bill Foley (singer songwriter)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete and redirect to 2016 Ohio machete attack. J04n(talk page) 00:23, 12 June 2016 (UTC)

Bill Foley (singer songwriter)

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Appears to fail WP:MUSICBIO. I cannot access most of the sources as they are behind a proquest pay wall. Non notable, only playing as a backup singer or singing cover songs. One book doesn't make him pass WP:NAUTHOR either. Gbawden (talk) 11:48, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Foley became a hero when he was playing a regular, once-a-week gig in a restaurant when a guy who had apparently been listening to too much jihad propaganda walked in and started attacking people with a machete (2016 Ohio machete attack). Foley picked up a chair and swung it at the machete-wielding jihad-wannabe.  One of the guys in the  kitchen then picked up a baseball bat and chased the jihadi  out.  Coverage was extensive, now adding to this article.  But it did not seem like ONEEVENT because Foley coverage makes it clear that Foley was a regionally well-know professional musician.  Note that I'm not arguing that he a nationally famous musician,  just a guy who passes WP:BIO because of a touring career that got coverage at the time, a mid-life career as a beloved and regionally well-known leader of a central Ohio oldies band, and intensive, extensive news coverage of the moment when he picked up that chair and defended a restaurant full of people from attack coverage that hinged on the fact that he was already a locally notable musician (demonstrated by tee fact that the kitchen worker with the baseball bat did not get the kind of profiles Foley did.)  Some of the coverage is on the question of whether Foley would be able to play guitar again with his damaged hand.  Coverage is coverage, no matter what prompted an editor to assign/run the story.  Note also that Coverage in RS (i.e. newspapers from the 90s) counts towards notability, and is essential when, as here, a performer's touring career took place a couple of decades ago and, therefore, coverage is in news archives and behind paywalls.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Gbawden, I edit regularly at AFD, and I know that every wanna-be professional singer, writer, poet, artist, actor and guitar picker in America and India tries puts up a page (or their college roommate does). You and other editors perform the labors of Hercules in sifting through articles about would-be famous artists.  I hope that you will revisit.  Searches should be performed on both William and Bill Foley, with keywords including Columbus, musician, machete, guitarist,  and Nazareth.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:38, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * User:E.M.Gregory I have been known to be wrong Gbawden (talk) 13:54, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * - Are you Bill's roommate? AusLondonder (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. /wiae  /tlk  15:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. /wiae  /tlk  15:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment This article, created by E.M.Gregory, was almost certainly created as a WP:CFORK of 2016 Ohio machete attack, also created by E.M.Gregory. WP:1E could apply here as Foley was a victim of the attack. AusLondonder (talk) 16:03, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * hey there Auslander, my long-time hound (apologies to the rest of the world for attracting him here - he hounds me for entirely non-music-related reasons.) So, the thing is (aside from covering only 1 victim in-depth being WP:UNDUE if this is added to the page about the machete attack,)   the thing is that both in older sources and in articles prompted by the machete incident, Foley has a sufficiently high public profile to pass WP:BIO, even though searches on a guy with a name as common Foley, who goes by both Bill and William, and is variously described as a singer songwriter, musician, guitarist, and singer - not to mention the general difficulties of archive searches, paywalls, etc..... When the sources exist, there can be an article, no matter what prompted the articles to be written.E.M.Gregory (talk) 17:11, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, there was a new article recently, followed by,  focused on the restaurant owner, who I do not see as notable independent of the attack, although he may become so if he continues to be an activist.  The article prompted me to look Foley up.  I hadn't paid much attention to the victims when writing the original article - which Auslander has been attempting to discredit or delete since it was written (see: Talk:2016 Ohio machete attack.)  I continue to think that focusing on individual victims in disaster/terror attack articles in inappropriate, although it is not unusual for post-incident profiles about victims to prompt the writing of articles in reliable media that, in turn, prompt an editor to create an article, see, for example: Dan Fredinburg.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:22, 12 May 2016 (UTC)

*Comment - I won't give an official vote yet until more votes are in, partially out of fear that will accuse me of WP:WIKIHOUNDING again (which I have no patience for). However, I do feel like this article gives a bit of an undue weight on his involvement in stopping the attack, which I assume is where most of the sources on him will be coming from. Maybe this article could benefit from some more expansion on his musical career and/or that book of his? Parsley Man (talk) 21:33, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Allegations of WP:WIKIHOUNDING is E.M.Gregory's favourite, indeed trademark, approach to any dispute. AusLondonder (talk) 23:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly 3 editors hound me. Auslander, ParsleyMan and MSJapan. Sigh.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:28, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I wasn't hounding you here. I only noticed this article after a link for it came up on the 2016 Ohio machete attack, which I follow. Parsley Man (talk) 01:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Weak delete - I have fully examined the sources. A vast majority of them have some predominant focus on the machete attack that he stopped, which suggests he only became truly notable because of this single event. The ones that are dated before the attack (except one) are inaccessible due to a proquest pay wall (just as said), so I can't assess the quality of the information provided on his career, and therefore, no assessment that the "touring career that got coverage at the time" is notable enough. The one source that is dated before the attack and is accessible only mentions the name of his band once and nothing else about him, so I can't even tell if this is the same cover band he founded (could be a long shot, but the possibility of another band called Bill Foley Band does sound plausible to me). As I said before earlier, there's an undue weight on his involvement in stopping the attack and not enough information/specifics on his career before said attack that could justify notability. The fact that he is a backup singer or sings cover songs doesn't sound notable to me either. I could reconsider my stance if more information is provided on his career and/or the older sources I can't get into are bypassed so I can read them. Parsley Man (talk) 01:57, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Sources detailing his career and profiles include: ;  .E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:48, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * The first one was published way after I made that vote, so you can't blame me for missing that one. The second one wasn't even included as a reference for the article, so I didn't know that existed until you brought it up. Parsley Man (talk) 01:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete WP:NOTNEWS as a WP:BLP1E and a fork of 2016 Ohio machete attack. The subject is not notable as a musician.  The entirety of his coverage is due to one event that actually didn't get more than local coverage (majority of sources are Columbus-based).  As a BLP article, the sources pertaining to the restaurant owner, other victims, and details pertaining to the attack are not relevant to Foley's BLP.  His musical career appears to be limited solely to Columbus and environs, as evidenced by his press kit.  I looked back four years, and he basically played two restaurants (one being the Nazareth) and a few one-off gigs.  The only person who claims he's a "nationally touring artist" is Foley himself, and he has no material in his press kit to support his opening act claims whatsoever.  Therefore, both the statement that he's nationally touring and that his band is popular are subjective and unsupported by any independent sources, nor are they really all that well supported by non-independent sources.  There are, by the way, very few cover acts that ever function more than regionally, and Foley is one of them - his non-regional appearances seem to have been based on playing for personal friends and calling them business gigs.  The three criteria of BLP1E are that reliable sources cover him only in the context of one event; that seems to be the case.  He's otherwise a low-profile individual, because local coverage isn't sufficient.  The event itself is also not significant; it received no coverage outside the Columbus area.  On top of all that, there is serious coatracking of sources to build superficial notability, but WP:109PAPERS would seem to apply here as well - repetition of information is not depth of coverage. MSJapan (talk) 04:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Coverage that obviates these objections. Here: .E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:52, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Please do not make sweeping statements that are not accurate. The Columbus machete attack and Foley's role in it was a national news story.  Washington Post, NBC News [ http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/lot-hate-anger-victims-recall-gruesome-ohio-machete-attack-n518721],  also Times of Israel ,  AP/CBS  more. His admittedly regional music career is sourced both to Ohio papers and to papers in several states where he toured earlier in his career.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:33, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, the article makes it clear that "four years"would not cover the period of Foley's touring career, which took upwards of 2 decades ago. And his press kit is less imporatant than the sources I already brought to the page.  Are you still hung up over  our differences re: Matthew C. Whitaker???E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:38, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Not at all. I did some searching for sources, and there's nothing RS that leads me to believe that Foley is notable as a person outside of the attack.  The details of his music career are entirely based on statements he has made himself on his website, and that's not independent of the subject.  There's no verifiable data to indicate he ever did anything outside of being a local opener, and as a cover act, he doesn't have awards, album releases, concert reviews, or any other press that would clearly meet the criteria for notability as a musician. MSJapan (talk) 04:51, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Please do not make unsupported accusations. NONE of the "details of his music career are"  in fact "based on statements he has made himself on his website."   I found every detail in the article in a RS and every jot and tittle is sourced to a reliable news story.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:48, 26 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Note I wouldn't object to a redirect to 2016 Ohio machete attack, my reason for not simply adding this material to that article is a fear of WP:UNDUE, and the fact that in long experience editing articles on terrorist attacks and disasters, I have learned that details on the lives of attack victims are not considered notable. But, as w,as the case with Dan Fredinburg and others, death or injury in a disaster or notable incident can produce reliable coverage about the life of a victim that enables a Wikipedia bio to be written.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't object to a redirect either. But the real issue with this article is if there is enough information on Foley's personal life and career that meets notability. Like I said, my main issue with the article is the lack of such information. Remove all info about his involvement in stopping the attack and this article will be a very short stub. Dan Fredinburg is different because there is enough information on him outside of his death, so much that it encompasses six different sections consisting of a number of well-sized paragraphs. Foley only has one section (if you don't count the well-developed attack section) that only has one paragraph. Parsley Man (talk) 02:44, 16 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge/Redirect with/to 2016 Ohio machete attack. Here we have a journeyman musician who attracted only a scattering of local attention even after years and years of playing, recording no significantly well-known songs of his own and never charting anywhere with anything, yet he suddenly got forced into an extraordinary situation, giving him a smattering of notice, only to return to obscurity once again. By all accounts, he acted heroically and deserved that burst of coverage. The central thing is, though, that: Were it not for the strange incident, this would be yet another of the countless blink-and-you-miss-it pages that pop up like daisies in support of non-notable underground musicians. His limited notability is in connection to his role in the attack, that's basically it. Due weight on the attack's page would probably be a justly sourced bunch of sentences, and that can be hashed out on the related talk page. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 21:58, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - If anyone is confused, the article started out as "Bill Foley (singer songwriter)" and became "Bill Foley (singer-songwriter)" after a move. It's a minor point, but just making a note of that in case someone is mistakenly thinking that their eyes are playing tricks on them. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 22:02, 21 May 2016 (UTC)
 * So, a Columbus-area newspaper just published a profile of Foley, not about the terrorist attack, about his career.  I've added it to the page. E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:14, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 04:57, 24 May 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Note Revisiting this long-running AFD, googled, and am expanding article now with a bio/profile published this week by an Ohio newspaper. I do think that this new, published profile/bio the sourcing over many years sourcing marks this as clearly passing WP:BIO.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment - With these newest edits, I think we may be off to a good start with expanding the article and ultimately keeping it. I still feel that the non-attack sections still need some expanding before I can concretely say it's worth keeping, though, so I'm keeping my vote for now. I'll reconsider if and when more substantial info is added. Parsley Man (talk) 01:51, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and Redirect if needed as there's particularly nothing outstanding here aside from the apparent event, nothing convincing of an independently notable article. SwisterTwister   talk  21:35, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Yellow Dingo (talk) 10:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.