Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Billy Ruane


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to The_Middle_East_(nightclub). Black Kite (t) (c) 23:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Billy Ruane

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Delete: Non-notable despite local coverage of death, which is not always dispositive of the question of notability. Fails WP:N, and WP:BIO completely. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:24, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Massachusetts-related deletion discussions. — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 14:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 14:43, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  — &mdash; alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 14:44, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 00:52, 2 October 2011 (UTC)




 * Delete It seems he was moderately well-known behind the scenes in the Boston music crowd. However, all I could find were passing mentions in reliable sources until he died, when all the Boston papers ran obituaries.  Obits can be useful for documenting biographical details of someone otherwise notable, but lacking other significant coverage, they aren't sufficient to establish notability, in my judgment.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  05:23, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am withdrawing my recommendation to delete based on some of the better references furnished during the debate (though the YouTube and Myspace stuff did not influence me at all)  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  05:44, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Billy was more than just moderately well-known. He established the Middle East as a notable venue and launched many notable acts in the Boston - Cambridge area. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Middle_East_(nightclub). And he was the subject of a song (called "Billy Ruane") by notable band The Varsity Drag - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV2Eq1gVfqY - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Deily. His death devastated the Boston music community to a person precisely because he was a notable part of it. Maybe if you're lucky, you may be notable enough to have Peter Wolf and Duke Levine play your memorial birthday bash. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-laWPjfBf4. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.128.143.133 (talk) 19:29, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I am willing to be convinced, but we need evidence from reliable sources, not just your personal opinion. Please offer reliable, independent sources that gave him significant coverage, other than his obituaries already discussed.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  00:12, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

The wikipedia entry for Ben Deily, the youtube video of Varsity Drag performing Billy Ruane, and the youtube video of Peter Wolf and Duke Levine are reliable. Furthermore, in this case, the obituaries contain first person interviews with eyewitnesses attesting to Ruane's notable lifetime accomplishments, such as establishing the Middle East as a music venue and discovering and helping start the careers of many notable national acts, most recently Lady Lamb the Beekeeper (she also performed at his memorial and that video exists on youtube as well). They're not typical obituaries. Lady Lamb has Billy's picture (together with her and with Amanda Palmer - also notable) on her myspace page: http://www.myspace.com/ladylambthebeekeeper/photos/33781706 Speaking of Amanda Palmer, when she accepted her most recent Boston Music Award, she urged us all to be more like Billy Ruane: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHYN17cHWnw Here's from 2006: http://varsitydrag.bandcamp.com/track/billy-ruane In 1987, he got Buffalo Tom http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Tom their first Boston gig http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JZQKjR4bvQ This was his infamous birthday show that launched the Middle East and was much discussed in all those obituaries. Here he is in 2007 at the Middle East's 20th anniversary party http://www.bostongroupienews.com/MiddleEast20Anniversary.html with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalia_Zedek and Chris Brokaw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Brokaw among others. Here he is with The Dull in 2005 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXrEKNb1A5I&feature=player_embedded Here he is on vocals with Yo La Tengo in 1997 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsAvZhKpJU4 Crazy supereight performance from 1987 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CquaybvD2yU In 2007, Come reunited for his birthday http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yW26kPqiyhM Mary Lou Lord http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Lou_Lord spoke of Billy here (she was housesitting for him when whatever happened with Kurt Cobain happened) http://www.oedipus1.com/home/?p=203 Billy was, in fact, well-known and notable before his death, and his presence and influence were quite well-documented before anyone had to write his obituary. He was much better-known and far more influential, nationally as well as locally, than this guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatle_Bob  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.128.143.133 (talk) 23:19, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I hope you won't be offended by what I say, IP editor 209.128.143.133, because that is not my intention. We don't allow material from user submitted websites to be used as references to establish notability on Wikipedia.  That applies to YouTube, MySpace and (don't be shocked), Wikipedia itself.  That's right, you can't use one Wikipedia article as a reference for another Wikipedia article.  Otherwise, the whole thing would turn into circular self-referencing.  We need independent, reliable sources giving significant coverage to the topic.  So far, all we have is the obits, which most experienced editors don't think are enough.  Please furnish something independent and reliable other than the obits.  Thank you.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  06:44, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm not offended, and I understand that user-generated content cannot be used by itself to establish notability. It is offered as corroboration of original matter presented in the obituaries that apparently have been rejected solely because they are obituaries. I respectfully reiterate that where, as here, the obituaries contain new interviews with notable figures discussing the deceased, those articles go beyond mere biographic data and the new matter should be considered in determining notability, particularly if there is a lot of it. However, I have taken some time to conduct an internet search for news articles that are not also obituaries. This is an arduous task, because there are some 17 pages of obituaries and tributes before news archives begin appearing in a google search, but here are just a few:

Profiled in the Globe July 20, 1988. Noted as part of the Boston music scene for a dozen years. http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8071444.html Excerpt:  The Boston Globe (Boston, MA) July 20, 1988 | Jim Sullivan, Globe Staff | Copyright Share http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8071444.html#.TosUSk4TAYM.twitter on Twitter The URL http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-8071444.html#.TosUSk4TAYM.twitter has been shared 0 times.View these Tweets.

CAMBRIDGE - Billy Ruane has been a visable part of the Boston rock 'n' roll scene for a dozen years. Through most of it, he's been visable on dance floors around town -- in clubs such as the Rat, the Channel, the Underground, Streets and T.T. the Bear's Place. He was always easy to spot: this slight, youthful-looking guy, usually dressed in a shirt and tie, dancing like an absolute madman, often being knocked about by other dancers not so pleased with his intrusion into their space.

Ruane's special memories? "I got my nose broken at a Slits' show at the Channel while dancing. I saw the blood and just kept dancing. Another time, I was facing away from the stage and the people in …Full-text articles are only available to subscribers.

Postumously won Boston Music Awards Unsung Hero Award 2010:  http://articles.boston.com/2010-12-06/ae/29295703_1_amanda-palmer-honors-year-nominees

1996 Boston Phoenix Interview with Peter Wolf in which Wolf casually compares his own house to Billy Ruane's http://www.bostonphoenix.com/alt1/archive/music/reviews/05-09-96/PETER_WOLF.html

Respect for Billy Ruane's musical sensibilities noted in The Boston Daily: Bill Janovitz' music blog:  http://blogs.bostonmagazine.com/boston_daily/2011/05/18/the-giant-kings-live-at-the-lizard-lounge/

Another mention of Billy's BMA: http://stuffboston.com/onthedownload/archive/2011/09/30/2011-boston-music-awards-return-to-the-liberty-hotel-on-november-20.aspx

Again in the Boston Phoenix performing at a DelFuegos show in 1999: http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/music/99/06/17/REX/DEL_FUEGOS.html  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.128.143.133 (talk) 14:52, 4 October 2011 (UTC) Again in the Phoenix 1997 http://www.bostonphoenix.com/archive/music/97/11/06/MIDDLE_EAST.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.128.143.133 (talk) 15:05, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Posthumous, but not an obituary: http://thephoenix.com/boston/music/111449-interview-pat-mcgrath-on-the-strange-cruel-beau/  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.128.143.133 (talk) 15:17, 4 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Delete fails WP:GNG. Stuartyeates (talk) 18:55, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 04:53, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

 
 * Delete or redirect to either William J. Ruane or The Middle East (nightclub). I agree that the article fails WP:GNG and WP:BIO. I have read sources and agree with this cited source which describes Mr Ruane as "a small-time nightclub impresario". As the nominator argued, eulogies and similar death notices are not always dispositive of the question of notability. ClaretAsh (talk) 12:45, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The Bushranger One ping only 05:53, 18 October 2011 (UTC)




 * NOTE: A redirect to either William J. Ruane or The Middle East (nightclub), while not something I am enthusiastic about, would be preferable to keeping as is. Respectfully move to close debate after almost an entire month passing since nomination for article deletion was made. Quis separabit?  17:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.