Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Black Cap (London pub)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Withdrawn as clear notability has been established  SilkTork  *YES! 14:36, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Black Cap (London pub)

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Article asserts notability without any supporting sources. Fails WP:Company. WP:NOTDIRECTORY applies. A search revealed nothing more than the usual pub directory listings. Has had a "notability" tag for over a year. I am told that it is one of Europe's most significant gay clubs, though I found no evidence of that. It is listed in a London gay pub directory here as simply one of over 25 gay pubs in London with no mention of its significance. I can see an article being constructed around First Out - London's first openly gay bar, and Admiral Duncan pub quite rightly has an article - but I am dubious about this place.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:29, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 01:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 01:34, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete. I don't count the use of the adjective "notable" as any evidence of notability. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 08:46, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Google Books comes up with enough hard evidence of its enduring notability to satisfy me : "London's premier drag pub", (The virgin guide to London, 1986), "The Black Cap in Camden Town is the London Palladium of late-night drag" (Evening Standard London Pub Bar Guide 1999), "Camden's premier gay venue" (London City Guide, 2008), "North London's most popular gay bar and cabaret" (Lets Go 2009 Europe). Qwfp (talk) 09:21, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Directory listings are not the most significant coverage, though repeated coverage in notable guide books is helpful. I am doubtful here as the Black Cap is being listed in each case as one of a number of gay bars in London - rather than being singled out for individual attention, and statements such as "Camden's premier gay venue" are more indicative of the pub being dealt with in the Camden Town article rather than as a standalone. The guide books / directories throw up other gay pubs which also seem to have some strong statement made to distinguish them, such as Comptons of Soho - "Soho's oldest gay pub", Hoist - "One of Europe's most famous fetish clubs", BJ’s White Swan - "The gay legend in London’s East End". As we are an encyclopedia rather than a travel guide, I'd rather see something more meaningful than a series of articles on pubs which say little more than "popular gay pub in Camden" or "popular biker pub in Soho".  SilkTork  *YES! 21:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Qwfp's research above. It should be expanded, of course.--Gloriamarie (talk) 20:53, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Question - is this pub the same as the "Mother Black Cap" pub or are they different establishments? Otto4711 (talk) 13:48, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you mean the one in "Withnail & I", that's fictional (a conflation of this Black Cap and the Mother Red Cap in north Islington). There did used to be a "Mother Black Cap" in West London (now the Tavistock Arms), but that has nothing to do with this. – iride  scent  16:04, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The scenes were filmed in Notting Hill. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 20:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep, for the same reason I declined a prod on this; while the Admiral Duncan is famous by virtue of being the venue for David Copeland's bombing, the Black Cap is far and away the best known (and IIRC, now that the Astoria has been demolished, the largest) gay club in London as well as the focal point of the British drag scene. – iride  scent  16:08, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * keep per the above, requires expansion and also sources to establish notability - I have added the resuce tag for this purpose. Artw (talk) 19:04, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep extremely well known for its drag cabaret. Reg Bundy (notable enough to have a London Times obit) performed there for years -- I added a ref per this fact. Doubtless there are many more refs to be found/added. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 20:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Added several new sources re notability. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 20:19, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.