Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blackened death metal (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Death metal.  MBisanz  talk 02:14, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Blackened death metal
AfDs for this article: 
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Note: Completing AfD notice for another (IP) editor that added this to the talk page: "I have nominated for AfD as this is basically an unsourced, made up genre. Someone presumably having a laugh. 90.214.234.45 (talk) 21:40, 3 December 2008 (UTC)" Blackmetalbaz (talk) 12:09, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Obvious keep as recognised, though maybe minor, genre. --Ouro (blah blah) 12:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge to parent genre. A previous AFD referred to an NYT article that mentioned the genre, but there's not enough references to support a separate article. - Mgm|(talk) 13:01, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment But which parent genre? The article's title is somewhat misleading, I feel. I personally have come across "black/death metal" and "death/black metal" more commonly than "blackened death metal" but they essentially mean the same thing... a fusion style with elements of both. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 13:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge and Redirect as per Mgm. The parent article is Death metal.  --Pmedema (talk) 15:29, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete as an obvious neo/genre invention. AlexTiefling (talk) 16:49, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Ahem, how can a neologism get 106k Google hits (including 2330 hits when searching only Polish-language pages)? This term had been picked up long ago. --Ouro (blah blah) 20:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Slightly playing Devil's advocate here, but can you point to any of those that are reliable sources that provide significant coverage? I tried a similar search excluding blogs, Amazon, Last.fm and the like and the number dropped to a tenth of that, and everything in the first seven or so pages was either trivial or non-reliable. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment, yes I can. Encyclopaedia Metallum, a. k. a. The Metal Archives, uses the term, as can be seen here and here. The term can also be found on Discogs as can be seen here. I'd call these two sites reliable, they both have their articles on en.wiki. I remember another site but cannot find it right now. What do you think? --Ouro (blah blah) 21:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Neither is a reliable source. Discogs.com and Metal Archives are both user-edited. Before someone says it, I know that the genres are moderated on MA but not by any professional or commercial body; just the creators of the site. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:31, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Question by someone who seeks guidance: what kind of (I quote humbly) professional body exists anywhere to tell anyone whether this or that is a proper or legimitate music genre? --Ouro (blah blah) 21:43, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment A commercially published print source is always a good bet. For something like this a Terrorizer or Metal Maniacs article on "blackened death metal" would be fine (in fact, there may well be one in Terrorizer; I shall look). Also there are plenty of books kicking around that cover death and black metal, although a Google Books search came up with nothing for the term. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 21:47, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Okay, agree on that. I did a (quick) search and just found out that Terrorizer called Vital Remains a blackened death metal band, which would have never entered my mind by the way, to me they're always gonna play death metal. Anyway, if you want I can look further. --Ouro (blah blah) 21:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply I get 491 unique Non-wikipedia sites by my count...a bit less than 106k. -Verdatum (talk) 23:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge with parent article(s), presumably black metal or death metal. While it does exist as a sub-genre of sorts, it's a minor one, and we have far too many of these articles. After all, if Metal is a genre, that makes black metal a subgenre. Which makes this one a sub-sub-genre. Such a thing really doesn't warrant it's own article in most circumstances. As an additional comment, google hits really don't mean anything (the large number of Polish language ones actually work against it: I'm betting they're all for the band Behemoth, and as such show just how many pages/hits a single band can generate). MA is, to be honest, very reliable on metal genres -but- that is A) not what's up for debate here, and B) not relevant, because they wouldn't necessarily put it forward as a big genre worthy of an article. Prophaniti (talk) 22:14, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:DEATHGRUNT. Colonel Warden (talk) 18:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - this is a widely recognized style within the extreme metal community. However, reliable sources might be hard to find, particularly since it's known by different names - blackened death metal, black/death, death/black etc.  ~Asarlaí  14:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge what can be salvaged to one or other parent genre. The term is definitely in use, but is far from a distinct genre. At present the article consists of an OR characteristics paragraph and an ever-growing list of bands; this doesn't make an article. I think the problem is that all that can be said of the "genre" is that there are a number of bands that mix elements of black metal and death metal. What else is there to say? Blackmetalbaz (talk) 15:04, 8 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.