Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Blue Pig (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The article present at the end of this debate is essentially a completely different one than the one that was nominated - a very large-scale expansion by Uncle G at the end of the listing period has resulted in an article with a different name, an expanded topic, and almost completely different content. Any consensus that has therefore developed earlier in the discussion is therefore ultimately rather irrelevant. With the discussion leaning towards "keep" even without the improvements, I do not see much sense in continuing the debate at this time. ~ mazca  talk 01:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Public houses and inns in Grantham n&eacute;e Blue Pig
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Article doesn't assert notability. Fails WP:Company. WP:NOTDIRECTORY applies. This is an average local pub with no evidence of significant coverage in secondary sources. Research reveals a local newspaper story about ghosts in the pub - though no national sources other than the typical pub review sites, BeerInTheEvening, etc. WP:Company states that "attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability." I did consider a redirect to Grantham - however, there are other Blue Pig pubs. A possible solution is to redirect Blue Pig to Pub names, and to create a redirect for Blue Pig, Grantham to Grantham.

I did PROD this yesterday, but it was then pointed out that this article had been to a previous AFD and was kept.  SilkTork  *YES! 10:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 13:44, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Pubs aren't notable, but buildings that have existed for 400 years and run the same business for 200 years are. Plenty of coverage in Google Books. However, if this article expands, it should be about the history of the pub and the hilding, not what drinks promotions are on this week. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 14:48, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't pick up significant material on this pub in Grantham in Google Books - though I did pick up discussion on pub names in Lincolnshire which include several pubs with the name Blue Pig - so a redirect to Pub names might make sense. Being a 200 year old pub is not in itself notable, as you'd need to go back 600+ years to be notable - such as Ye Olde Trip To Jerusalem. 1800 was a peak pub building period, so many pubs in the UK are around 200 years old.  SilkTork  *YES! 18:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Being built 200 years ago may not be notable, but surviving 200 years is more so. This is an older building as well.  Although this really needs a few links.  JASpencer (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry I wasn't clearer. The majority of pubs in the UK date from the late Georgian and Victorian period. Some of the buildings were purpose built as pubs (mainly late Victorian), while others were converted from an existing use. The fact that a pub has been in business for 200 years is quite common, so is not in itself notable. And as Peterkingiron says, 16th century buildings are not unusual (nearly every town in the UK has several buildings of that age or older - the local church will almost certainly be pre-16th century) and are not listable just because of their age. It's a question of identifying what needs to be a standalone article, and what can be dealt with within the local article. I would say that the Blue Pig pub is so unremarkable that it may not even warrant a mention in the Grantham article, let alone a stand alone (though it does have a mention in Grantham). If people want to find information on local pubs they could turn to one of the many pub directory sites (put in Blue Pig Grantham in Google and the most popular will come up) - if people want information on notable pubs they will come here. We don't yet have a specific guideline for notability for pubs, though we do have a specific guideline for businesses (which is what a pub is), and that guideline is WP:Company - this pub does not meet the criteria for WP:Company as the only sources are a local newspaper and internet pub directories. If a reliable source (not vague Google "hits") can be found which asserts notability then we can close this AFD and work on building the article, but as it stands, this is just another pub.  SilkTork  *YES! 09:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak keep, per hits from Google News and Google Books, however the article needs to be expanded especially to assert it's notability, as it stands right now it's barely keepable. -- &oelig; &trade; 22:12, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak delete As a 400-year old building, it is presumably a listed builing. That might possibly make it notable, but buildings of that age are not exceptional in England.  I thus have grave doubts as to its retention.  Peterkingiron (talk) 23:54, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * It is a grade II listed building. Keith D (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep, but if it is to be kept, I think it needs expansion. Spongefrog,   (talk to me, or else)  17:31, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Grantham. Keep the history and mark it as a redirect with posibilities.  It's almost certainly article worthy with 400 years of history, but there's nothing in the current article to give notability.  JASpencer (talk) 08:25, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This one pub isn't notable on its own. It is, however, part of a larger, overall, topic that is notable.  And it's not to do with the age of the building (which, as noted above, is nothing to do with notability).  As explained in User:Uncle G/On notability and in Notability, we rename and refactor the article in such cases, such that it deals with the notable umbrella topic.  Uncle G (talk) 14:07, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.