Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/BoOzy' OS and the Cristal Gem


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. Once we discard the clearly canvassed votes, and give due weight to the version of source analysis that is supported by P&G, there is a rough consensus to delete. Owen&times; &#9742;  13:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

BoOzy' OS and the Cristal Gem

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

This appears to fail WP:NFILM. This was a short film which was submitted to a 2013 Dailymotion contest connected with Annecy ("+ de courts"), but which did not win the judging. I can't find any mention of it in the archived Annecy web site, nor can I find any substantial coverage online, just a lot of entries in film databases and an unusual amount of media on Commons (for now, at least: c:Commons:Deletion requests/Files uploaded by REDƎYE). Omphalographer (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Film and Comics and animation. Omphalographer (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Relisting. We have several less experienced editors participating here and I urge them to review Notability (films) which is Wikipedia's guideline on how to judge notability regarding films and it doesn't include consideration by IMDb or Rotten Tomatoes. The nominator pointed out this page but I don't think some editors here are familiar with it. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete Can't find any substantial coverage in secondary sources outside of a blog or two. Nowhere good to redirect to, it isn't mentioned in Annecy International Animation Film Festival and there's no article for the director. Odd that a French film has articles in 30 languages but not French. hinnk (talk) 01:48, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, it was in French Wikipedia but they deleted it years ago as non-notable. hinnk (talk) 02:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  10:58, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep I find many secondary sources on Google : a critic review in Romania, another in London (2023), an interview in Paris (2014), another in India (2023), etc. IMDB shows 1700 votes, 8 awards and 1 nomination. This seems to me to be very ample in terms of notoriety for a short film ^^ (note : I remember the AFD in FR in 2014 : at that time, there was not enough sources (only 1 interview I think) but with today awards and coverage, I think the article should be recreated in FR) --Supersonic888 (talk) 13:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * This is not 8 but 10 wins, and not 1 but 4 nominations ^^ I just added "Critical response" and "accolades" sections with sources on the article. --Supersonic888 (talk) 15:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Interviews are primary sources that don't help meet the general notability guideline, those two reviews are both from sites that accept payment for reviews, and the World Film Carnival Singapore site you added to the article was running malware that immediately redirected me without even showing a review. Do you understand my concern when someone says a subject is very ample in terms of notoriety, with this as the evidence? hinnk (talk) 19:59, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm admittedly not an expert on the film industry, but most of those awards appear to be from monthly online competitions, not notable film festivals. For example, the "Rome International Movie Awards" is a blog which issues dozens of awards to amateur films every month. Omphalographer (talk) 20:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I am not an expert on the film industry either but it seems they paid for participating in festivals, not for reviews or awards. I didn't have any problem for visiting the World Film Carnival site (no malware for me) ^^
 * The fact that it is an amateur film (if it is one? I don't know) does not seem to me to be a criterion for deletion: we are talking about notoriety and I believe that this point is respected, internationally (I add that on Commons there are photos showing the director with trophies at these festivals in Asia, which also shows international distribution).
 * If we look at Category:2013 animated short films and IMDB (when available):
 * Aruvu Rezuru: Kikaijikake no Yōseitachi = 23 votes
 * Backward Run = 77 votes, 1 win & 3 nominations
 * The Blue Umbrella (2013 film) = 11000 votes, 1 nomination, 17 critics (Pixar)
 * A Boy and His Atom = 454 votes, 1 critic
 * The Chaperone 3D = 90 votes, 7 wins & 4 nominations, 1 critic
 * Death Billiards = 2100 votes, 2 critics
 * The End of Pinky = 51 votes, 2 nominations, 3 critics
 * Game Over (2013 film) = 0 vote
 * Get a Horse! = 5600 votes, 2 wins & 2 nominations, 20 critics (Mickey)
 * Gloria Victoria = 137 votes, 1 win & 7 nominations, 5 critics
 * Hollow Land = 58 votes, 8 wins & 3 nominations, 1 critic
 * Impromptu (2013 film) = 28 votes, 1 nomination, 1 critic
 * Kick-Heart = 1000 votes, 1 wins & 3 nominations, 9 critics
 * Mary & Myself = 16 votes, 1 nomination
 * The Missing Scarf = 468 votes, 15 wins & 5 nominations, 4 critics
 * Missing U (film) = 26 votes
 * Mr Hublot = 5200 votes, 6 wins & 2 nominations, 14 critics
 * Party Central = 3700 votes (Disney Pixar)
 * The River's Lazy Flow = 11 votes, 1 win & 1 nomination
 * The Scarecrow (2013 film) = 248 votes, 5 wins
 * The Smurfs: The Legend of Smurfy Hollow = 986 votes, 1 nomination, 13 critics (The Smurfs)
 * Subconscious Password = 198 votes, 3 wins & 5 nominations, 4 critics
 * Toy Story of Terror! = 18000 votes, 6 wins & 10 nominations, 31 critics (Disney Pixar)
 * This is to show that with 1700 votes it has more votes than most other films, even more than The Smurfs. Only 6 blockbuster films have more votes (Disney Pixar, Mickey, etc).
 * To me, all this is significant in terms of notoriety even though one could still argue that some votes could be rigged. Supersonic888 (talk) 16:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * User votes on IMDb are not in any way, shape, or form a measure of notability (nor "notoriety"). Omphalographer (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree, and that's not what I'm basing it on here (I just point this out, in addition to my remarks), but it's an interesting indicator ^^ Supersonic888 (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep the sources are fine with me and the notoriety seems sufficient to me, with good worldwide coverage. However, some festivals mentioned are a bit light (Morocco Fest and Oregon Film Festival: there is only one primary source). The article seems acceptable to me on Wikipedia in French as well --CineDany (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep Convinced by the arguments, sources ok for me. The only point that would make me hesitate would be the film’s absence from major review aggregation websites such as Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic. --SuperKFuu (talk) 15:12, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm not impressed by the quality of the sources; this seems to fail the notability guidelines. There's a concerted effort by the creators to prop up the work across Wikimedia projects but the coverage just isn't there. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 07:19, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Comment Based on the references that have been added, I put together a quick source assessment to evaluate where we are now. It seems to me like WP:GNG has still not been reached. hinnk (talk) 01:46, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

In a short time, this is all I find; I don't have time to look further but all this (including comments above) seem really more than enough to me --Streets4rage (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete: The film is not notable per our standards. Little to no coverage in .fr sources, this is the best, it's basically a listing akin to the imdb. The awards won are not notable (none from notable film festivals), nor can I find confirmation of the Annecy win (the source used, Dailymotion, is not reliable). Annecy is a big deal in France, and the fact that zero media there have covered it is proof of non-notability. Here's the search  in Gnews, looking for sources from France: listings for kombucha drinks and other kinds of nonsense, completely unrelated ot this film. Oaktree b (talk) 03:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: Here's the French wiki deletion discussion from 2015: ... The sources found were the films sponsors, none of which were in French either. Oaktree b (talk) 03:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * For the record: My French is limited but you're just reading the Afd nom's rationale apparently....and he (nor anyone on that page) does not say that no sources in French existed.... (not that it should have mattered the least, btw). Also, shall we delete every page the French Wikipedia has decided to delete? Good luck. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  12:09, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * I agree. In addition, the AfD on the French wiki is from 2015, whereas most sources provided here are more recent. Not only should this comment not be considered, but it also makes me wonder if the French article could not be restored. Streets4rage (talk) 13:58, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List_of_animated_short_films: and add the sources there, if it's judged insufficient for a page; but not opposed to Keep myself, given the sources presented and the number of screenings/awards. - My, oh my! (Mushy Yank)  12:16, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep for many reasons that follow the guidelines:
 * the film is worldwidely distributed and has received full-length reviews by at least three critics ten years after its initial release
 * the film is historically notable as it was screened in at least two (maybe up to eight or more?) festivals more than five years after initial release
 * in addition the film has been covered in at least two books in English (which I have added in the bibliography section) including one which considers it one of Dailymotion 120 successes
 * the Hungarian film database Mafab ranks the film as the 30th (among 3181) best short film and the 291st (among 3708) best animated film
 * and by searching for “BoOzy’ OS and the Cristal Gem” on Google, I found on the 1st page that the film is ranked 6th among the most consulted film listings on this French database. By the way, speaking of numbers, if we look closely at the Dailymotion source, the film had been watched on this website 144,032 times as of October 6, 2014, ie about a year and a half after its release. These numbers, like IMDB's, do not establish its notoriety but it is a coherent whole that is find almost everywhere which indicates that it has a substantial audience and not just limited to one geographical area.


 * We don't consider online views or listings in databases to prove notability. Unless the numbers are audited, they can be tricked/gamed by streaming farms. Similarly for online music, we don't use Apple/Spotify streams/downloads as proof of notability as they aren't audited the way radio airplay is or album sales at the retail channels are. Being 291st out of 3000-something films isn't terribly notable either... Oaktree b (talk) 18:46, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Streets4rage, thanks for adding the book sources to the bibliography. Unfortunately, neither of these meet the standard for reliable sources. You'll notice Dailymotion 120 Success Secrets was immediately removed by an uninvolved editor because Emereo Publishing republishes content that mirrors Wikipedia content. World Book of Short Films is a self-published book, which means it isn't acceptable as a source. I would recommend being a lot more cautious when taking facts from a press kit. hinnk (talk) 20:46, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi Oaktree b, about numbers, Streets4rage did not write anything of the sort, quite the contrary : "These numbers, like IMDB's, do not establish its notoriety". 291st out of 3708 isn't terribly notable, but 30th out of 3181 is (but before making me say what I did not say: that does not establish notoriety ^^) - on the other hand, the first two points mentioned by Streets4rage do ("three critics ten years after its initial release" & "screened in at least two (maybe up to eight or more?) festivals more than five years after initial release"). Supersonic888 (talk) 13:50, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Streaming numbers don't equal notability here, neither do non-notable film festivals. I'm unsure what being ImDB listed has to do with anything, we don't consider it for notability here, so being listed there is non-important here. Oaktree b (talk) 20:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Comment Here is another source assessment table, based on those from Hinnk and Streets4rage (which was removed even though it contained important info for this vote). I think Hinnk is right about the books, so I'm editing here what Streets4rage wrote. It seems to me like WP:GNG has been reached. --Supersonic888 (talk) 14:09, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Supersonic888, please remove my name as the preparer of that table, its conclusions are very different than mine. In particular, the standard for WP:SIGCOV is that a source "addresses the topic directly and in detail". Meeting this with sources that do not discuss the subject in detail is not a reasonable interpretation. Similarly, invoking WP:AGF about whether or not the creators paid for coverage is off-topic. WP:RS is for evaluating the publication, not the production studio. We don't conduct our own investigations into the article's subject, we identify questionable sites that are sponsored/promotional in nature and then don't use them.
 * I appreciate your adding additional detail about how you accessed World Film Carnival Singapore. The Internet Archive has made backups of the URL in question 4 times in the past year, and it shows that the page has been broken for quite some time. For me, it strains credulity that the page was broken when I visited it on May 28, came back up only when you visited it later that day, and then immediately broke again for everyone. The place you would've been able to been able to get that quote would be the C2S press kit. That would mark the second time an editor in this AfD added material from the press kit that they couldn't actually have accessed but glossed over that fact.
 * Since I don't have time to do it myself, I would ask that the AfD closer evaluate this discussion for any signs of meat puppetry or off-wiki canvassing. hinnk (talk) 18:36, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Hello Hinnk, sorry about your name, I copied and pasted the table and didn't see it. It wouldn't have bothered me if you had changed it ^^
 * As for WP:AGF, I copied and pasted what Streets4rage wrote, too. I mentioned it and any way, it seems fair to me: your link for a paid service does not say that all reviews were purchased.
 * To be more specific about the World Film Carnival Singapore, I accessed the link at least a year ago through Facebook. But yes, I copied the link from the press kit, as for the other 2 reviews, which was easier because everything is in the same place (try to find a Facebook post from a year ago, good luck ^^). Besides, on my computer the link was grayed out, which shows that I had already accessed it. I cleared the cache this afternoon (French time) and since then it loads endlessly. I tried your archive links and it didn't work neither. I don't know how to put another date.
 * I don't see what this proves about me and I don't know what else to tell you, sorry. Yes, you can ask that the AfD closer evaluate this discussion for any signs of meat puppetry or off-wiki canvassing (I have more interesting things to do than that ^^), I won't speak for the others contributors but personally I don't mind ^^ Supersonic888 (talk) 21:08, 7 June 2024 (UTC)


 * I am super curious how some people found this AfD. (For transparency, I found it through a Commons file deletion discussion).
 * Streets4rage hasn't edited this project since 2023 before finding this.
 * SuperKFuu hasn't edited since 2022 before finding this.
 * Supersonic888 has one edit in 2023 and otherwise also hadn't edited since 2022 before finding this.
 * CineDany had 9 edits since 2021 before finding this
 * I suspect some sort of outside canvassing is going on here. The Squirrel Conspiracy (talk) 23:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello The Squirrel Conspiracy,
 * And I'm super surprised to read how you "arrange" and interpret things... So much bad faith!
 * As for me:
 * you probably haven't seen it, but I contribute mainly to the Wiki in FR (I'm not a big contributor, does that prevent me from giving my opinion?).
 * you probably haven't seen it, too, but I participated in the debate on Commons on May 2 (because I used two images to illustrate the article in FR "Sonic the Hedgehog (films dérivés)", since I have to justify myself), almost a month before the opening of this discussion...
 * and by the way, you deleted the images on this article in FR so that you could then delete them on Commons... well done.
 * worse, you deleted the entire mention by indicating: « This was already deleted on fr.wiki as spam », which is totally false : the article was deleted as not notable, as already mentioned in the present discussion. You can also check it there: Discussion:BoOzy' OS et la Gemme de Cristal/Admissibilité. So this is absolutely not spam, it is an obvious lie - maybe to deceive contributors? I find it shameful coming from a contributor who seems experienced.
 * I see that you closed the discussion on Commons, even though there was no consensus yet, in defiance of the contributors who defended the topic.
 * Ah, since you seem to insist on super: my name here is Supersonic888, it starts with super, just like SuperKFuu... How doubtful! And Streets4rage starts with an S... Mmm. Lol ^^
 * More seriously: no one asked me to intervene here, I did it on my own . Again, please do some checking, I don't mind.
 * You think what you want, but it's very unpleasant to come here and read all these suspicions. So if you suspect, check rather than writing it down to sow doubt.
 * Moreover, I imagine that by reading what you have written, a contributor who would like to leave an opinion for conservation risks not expressing his opinion, for fear of being accused too. In any case, it makes me regret having participated. Thank you. Supersonic888 (talk) 16:59, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Oh, and I just see that you asked for a speed deletion on all wikis with the message: "Spam. I believe there is a coordinated effort off-site to promote this non-notable project across a large number of Wikipedia languages. Already deleted on fr.wiki and will likely be deleted on en.wiki shortly."
 * Once again, you use the word spam. No comment.
 * In addition, you request a deletion without discussion, on a simple assumption on your part. For instance, I see on NL: "It must meet the requirements for speedy deletion, otherwise use the regular procedure for nominating pages."
 * And once again, you are using the pretext of the deleted FR article. As Streets4rage wrote and at the risk of being accused again: "the AfD on the French wiki is from 2015, whereas most sources provided here are more recent.",
 * And by the way, tell me if I'm wrong, but aren't the rules different from one wiki to another?
 * But the worst thing is that you already consider that the page is going to be deleted, even though the debate is not closed and is far from consensus.
 * Since the majority of articles have been deleted, you can justify the deletion on Commons. Well done!
 * And you even removed images from Commons that are still used in Wikipedia articles. But since they are going to be deleted, you are getting a head start ^^
 * Basically, there is no point in arguing here, your decision has already been made. What is the point of this discussion then? Supersonic888 (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Creating non-notable articles is spam, that's literally why we debate to remove them. They also note the English and Italian ones were created by the same creator, using the same type of sponsored, non-notable posts. Oaktree b (talk) 00:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * And this article was deleted on June 8th from Simple Wikipedia for G11, but I'm not sure we could speedy this particular article on en-wiki. Oaktree b (talk) 00:45, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


 * Dailymotion is not significant coverage, it's literally a photo from the film. IMdB qualifying still implies user-supplied content, so not a reliable source. MonkeyBread Tree says on their FAQ:"Due to our small body of people working within the selection committee, we only grant submission fee waivers on a case by case review. We often only waive fees when someone has certain exceptional issues which would prevent them from being able to enter the festival without our help, such as: international blockades against a particular country, trade restrictions and a severe lack of funds…". Submission fees are paying, so again, not a valid sourcing. None of these are useful as sources. Oaktree b (talk) 00:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The Fiffest also takes payment for films: . Have you even reviewed these sources before presenting your analysis? Oaktree b (talk) 00:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello Oaktree b,
 * I don't know how IMdB "accept" festivals entries, but for example I don't find there the "Paris à contre-jour" award, which makes me think that it is not a recognized festival. So they accept some festivals, but not all (once again I don't know the criteria). I also don't know how IMdB validates its data, but I doubt it's simply with a declaration from users (at least for awards) because otherwise it would be easy to add fake awards in order to say that a film got an award at a major festival (Cannes, for example). On the contrary, I believe that this information is verified, I don’t see how it could be otherwise.
 * As for the festival fees, I understand what you say, and thank you for this Fiffest link (which I didn't read at the time: I admit I just looked at the film review). There are entry fees, that's a fact. Creators said they "pay to participate in festivals" (so no contradiction here), not that they purchased awards or reviews, which is very different . And about these fees, isn't this the case for all festivals? I am not an expert on the film industry but I can't imagine a festival like Cannes being free, otherwise they would be flooded with films. So yes, I agree the 8 (or 10) awards here have not the same value as the Cannes one, that’s obvious and I understand that this could not be a sufficient argument. But anyway, following WP:NFILM:
 * 1/ " the film is worldwidely distributed and has received full-length reviews by at least three critics ten years after its initial release " (if in doubt that the link for the World Film Singapore review is not found, we will say two critics).
 * 2/ " the film is historically notable as it was screened in at least two (maybe up to eight or more?) festivals more than five years after initial release "
 * Supersonic888 (talk) 17:15, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * But the film festivals are not notable and we still have no extensive coverage about it. That's the matter here. Oaktree b (talk) 21:03, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * There's a fairly clear quid pro quo inherent to most of these online monthly film festivals. Of course they don't explicitly say "yes, here's the price for each award you win" - but when they give out dozens of awards every month, describe themselves up front as an "IMDb qualifying competition", and don't publish lists of non-award-receiving participants, I don't think it's any real secret what's going on. Omphalographer (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * They still aren't notable, these are basically diploma mills. Oaktree b (talk) 23:08, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Hello Oaktree b and Omphalographer,
 * About lists of non-award-receiving participants, I couldn't find them on their website, too (maybe on social media? Too long to check, there are too much posts/photos). Creators said "Sometimes we've won awards (IMDb certified for those mentioned - do you think IMDb would support fake awards?), sometimes been nominated, sometimes just been selected, sometimes not.". On the film's Facebook page, I see that the film has been selected in other festivals than those mentioned here (Luleå International Film Festival in Sweden, Lift-Off Global Network at Pinewood Studios (UK, with "Vimeo on demand" service by the way), Prisma Film Awards in Rome...) and then nothing. So I guess the film did'nt win anything there, which shows that awards are not given to everyone.
 * I just consulted World Film Carnival Singapore and Cult Critic Movie Awards (which are both very messy), there are a lot of sources (but some seem of poor quality to me, it will need cleaning). It seems that there is an annual screening (and not monthly) and that the trophies are only awarded once a year, to the best films/directors (the monthly awards would be a sort of qualification?). On Google, I actually see only few people with these trophies. So these festivals may be diploma mills, but maybe not trophy mills. The director of the Cristal Gem won at least 2 (there were photos on Commons, which have just been deleted while the discussion is not closed) and his film was screened with a trophy presentation ceremony (at least in Singapore and Paro, I haven't checked for other cities/countries). For a small 5-minute French short film, I find it remarkable.
 * PS: I just found a secondary source for the Oniros Awards on universalmovies.it (film was finalist, before being nominated), which I will add to the article ^^ Supersonic888 (talk) 14:32, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * On Google, I actually see only few people with these trophies. Yeah, that's because they charge extra for those. I'm not even kidding - for example, the rules for the Oniros Film Awards state that "Trophies are optional, are not included in the submission fee and all Winners may order the trophy by paying production costs and shipping costs". Omphalographer (talk) 18:38, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * These are small, non-notable "film festivals" that have no notability offline. Sure, there's always the chance they can become notable in time, but we aren't there yet. We had a similar discussion in the last year about a Belgian film that involved time travel/ancient Egypt, using much of the same arguments here; for the life of me, I can't remember the name. These festivals were and are thinly veiled PR items that anyone can submit to after paying a fee, then can "Win". Paying for your trophy isn't really helping disprove my point either... Oaktree b (talk) 20:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.