Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bob Muran


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  MBisanz  talk 17:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Bob Muran

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Contested PROD: Non-notable bio (plus COI and ownership issues). Subject has a reasonable number of non-notable medals, many hits for promotional material on the web, but unable to identify any significant coverage in secondary sources. No GNews hits except for a lawsuit that doesn't confer notability (PROD justification by User:Bongomatic, which I support.) OTRS ticket pending for cut and paste from subject's website. ukexpat (talk) 16:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * There is permission on Commons for using the text from the website, medals are not being listed on Wikipedia and have nothing to do with the article, these events took place in the 70's and 80's therefore online documentation is unlikely. You may contact students and television stations if you require verification. Also, there is no lawsuit article for the search term "Bob Muran" on GNews.

http://www.videolearning.com/S3916.HTM: "His students have included personalities such as Ivan Lendl and Ed McMahon and Edward Kennedy. Bob is a full time ski instructor trainer and examiner for the Professional Ski Instructors of America".

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=KprdsX9lSww

http://www.skiwithbob.com/parabolicskis.html

- AlpineSkiingCanada (talk)


 * Comment - none of these are reliable sources as described in WP:RS. – ukexpat (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Discovery Channel is a reliable source and so is OMNI Television's "Z Ukosa" as they are both mainstream media. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlpineSkiingCanada (talk • contribs) 18:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

<--Outdent Comment: Please be civil. Any editor is entitled to call into question the notability of an article as I have here. Even if you do not intend it to be promotional, with the website stuff added, it will read like the website and what is the purpose of the website if not to promote the man and his activities? Have you actually read WP:RS? – ukexpat (talk) 18:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: This Afd is not about the copyvio, it's about the notability of the subject. The addition of the material from the website will not help with that. In any event, please post a link to the OTRS resolution. – ukexpat (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Please provide the link to the GNews lawsuit story.AlpineSkiingCanada (talk)
 * Comment: Please don't be so petty. The OTRS issue is relevant to the article. The non-existence of a law suit just adds to non-notability. – ukexpat (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Please don't make up stories about GNews articles that don't exist. In regards to the OTRS ticket (cut and pasting from the website), there is already permission on commons for using the text from the website.AlpineSkiingCanada (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:34, 29 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Comment: I have searched on Commons and the only thing there relating to "Bob Muran" is the image page. – ukexpat (talk) 17:52, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Well another admin has stated that there is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Bob_Muran so one of you is not telling the truth. ` AlpineSkiingCanada (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 17:56, 29 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Comment: I have asked for clarification. But, even if you copy and paste from the website, that will not improve the notability of the subject - in fact it will make it look like a promo piece probably falling foul of WP:Spam. And BTW I am not an admin. – ukexpat (talk) 18:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: You are running out of excuses. The article is not intended for promotions. It is intended to highlight and commemorate the teaching and coaching career of the subject. Discovery Channel and OMNI Television's "Z Ukosa" are both reliable sources. If you are not an Admin then you should leave this to someone who is as they are more knowledgeble and have executive decision making.- AlpineSkiingCanada (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 18:18, 29 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Comment: User:Zureks is not an administrator on the English Wikipedia. Stifle (talk) 14:17, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: So there aren't any articles on Wikipedia where information is taken from the subject's official website? Plus, the "about us" page of the website is not intended as promotional text but as a biography and career highlights section. The "lessons" and "trips" pages serve the purpose of promotion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlpineSkiingCanada (talk • contribs) 18:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Of course there are, but not as a direct copy and paste, especially by an editor with a huge conflict of interest. But let's get back to the key issue here and that's notability. I think we each know the other's view on that so we will have to await the consensus of the rest of the community here. – ukexpat (talk) 19:00, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: You said that the Discovery Channel is not a reliable source and you keep forgetting that there is permission to use the text from the website. - AlpineSkiingCanada (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 20:39, 29 January 2009 (UTC).
 * Comment: Let me spell it out for you: 1. Permission to use the website content is irrelevant to this discussion - it will not help establish notability, because it is not "independent of the subject"; 2. Even if Discovery channel is a reliable source per WP:RS, one mention there and another on OMNI Television do not meet the basic criteria for notability in the guideline for biographies, nor the general notability guideline in WP:N - "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" (my emphasis). – ukexpat (talk) 20:51, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Johnny Carson, Wonderama, New York at Noon, A.M. New York, Citytv, CTV, Global A, OMNI Television - You may contact the following parties to verify. = AlpineSkiingCanada (talk)


 * Delete While this man may have an impressive sounding (to some) client list, the absense of verifiable, reliable, sources writing about him is the issue at hand.  As far as I can tell subject fails WP:GNG. L0b0t (talk) 21:31, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. There are no verifiable sources; the website is irrelevant to the AfD discussion since it would not add a reliable source (per WP:RS). Drmies (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Ok cocksmokers delete the article then. - AlpineSkiingCanada (talk)
 * Wow--I've never been called that before. Drmies (talk) 23:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete searching fails to find reliable, third-party, published sources. Notability not established per WP:GNG or WP:BIO.   Esradekan Gibb    "Talk" 21:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - the four "delete" !votes above have been restored after AlpineSkiingCanada first deleted them and then changed them to read "Don't Delete". JohnCD (talk) 22:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. No evidence of notability. However, the lawsuit does seem to exist: . —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bongomatic (talk • contribs) 11:10, 30 January 2009
 * Delete - notability not established; the lawsuit doesn't help. JohnCD (talk) 22:24, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Notability neither asserted nor demonstrated. Scapler (talk) 00:14, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * To be fair, the article use to say "internationally known" or something like that--without citation--and I removed it. So if you think that's a claim of notability sufficient to let the article stay around until someone can demonstrate it, you may wish to reconsider. Bongo  matic  01:51, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: That would be a reason to decline speedy, but we are beyond that, we are into lack of notability per guidelines. – ukexpat (talk) 03:19, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep keep and rewrite to avoid the copyvio, and we can judge better. DGG (talk) 02:48, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't understand your logic here. Numerous editors have made good faith searches for reliable secondary sources and have drawn blanks. Why does a rewrite change that, unless its written by someone who has access to other information--in which case bringing that information to bear now in the artcile or in this AfD would seem to be more appropriate. Bongo  matic  03:12, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: Neither do I - there is no copyvio as the stub now stands nor would there be with the addition of the website content as there is apparently an OTRS ticket confirming its release. This is purely a notability issue and of that there is no evidence. – ukexpat (talk) 03:16, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: 2384522 relates to this issue. Awaiting a proper copyright release. Stifle (talk) 14:18, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it doesn't matter as the copyvio material does not help establish notability, the concern giving rise to the AfD. Bongo  matic  14:20, 30 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: I just reverted the vandalism and incivility by AlpineSkiingCanada and filed a report at WP:AIV - enough is enough. – ukexpat (talk) 20:33, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Blocked indef. by LessHeard vanU. JohnCD (talk) 21:07, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * ...and came back as, indef blocked within 5 minutes. JohnCD (talk) 18:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
 * ...also note this edit by User:LacrosseChamp92--kelapstick (talk) 19:10, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment Clearly a sock, anyone want to volunteer to report? – ukexpat (talk) 19:12, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Blocked. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:20, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: I realize that it is highly unusual to semi-protect AfDs, but the sockpuppetry is disruptive. I've semi-protected this AfD until after it should be closed. -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:23, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete unless evidence of notability in reliable sources is provided. Terraxos (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.