Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Boris Malagurski (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Black Kite 19:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Boris Malagurski
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

This article was deleted by myself after a previous AFD for poor sourcing and further sources have been provided to me. They are non-english, but that's not relevant and the provider had written a short summary to allow us to understand them. I'm satisfied that we should consider the sources but I don't think it is my right to set aside the previous AFD without allowing further discussion by the community. Therefore a procedural relisting to garner opinion on the sources provided. As the closing admin of the previous discussion I add no opinion on the outcome of this one. Spartaz Humbug! 06:24, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Sources provided were:
 * "Pečat" magazine ("Печат" in Cyrillic, meaning "stamp") has an article about Mr. Malagurski and his film (not an interview) in their 66th edition. It's an entire page devoted to him and this is a secondary source. Please take a look at page 60
 * Article title: Косово: Можете ли да замислите? ("Kosovo: Can You Imagine?")
 * Article headline: Док су надобудни великани нашег филма, којима се свет дичи када пљују по свом народу, остали потпуно глуви, слепи и пријатно имуни на проглашење независности Косова, оно мало у њему још затурених Срба, један момак, наш, али из Канаде, отишао је на „ново“ Косово, и снимио на лицу места страдања Срба. ("While our respected film legends, whom the world respects only when they spit at their own people, remained deaf, blind and immune concerning Kosovo's declaration of independence, and the little Serbs left in it, one man, ours, but from Canada, went to the "new" Kosovo and filmed the Serb tragedy on the spot.")


 * "Novinar" novine ("Novinar" meaning "journalist", "novine" meaning "newspaper") has an article about Mr. Malagurski and his film (not an interview) and the entire article is devoted to him. Please take a look at this link
 * Article title: Šta se stvarno desilo? ("What really happened?")
 * Article headline: Nakon provokativnog filma o ljudskim pravima Srba i ostalih nealbanaca na Kosovu i Metohiji, osvojenih nagrada u Kanadi i Meksiku, te više prikazivanja filma na ruskoj televiziji, srpsko-kanadski režiser i producent Boris Malagurski iz Vankuvera, autor filma “Kosovo: Možete li zamisliti?”, ušao je u kompleksnu temu umešanosti zapada u unutrašnje poslove bivših jugoslovenskih republika, nekada i danas. ("After the provocative film on the human rights of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo, received awards in Canada and Mexico, as well as several screenings on Russian television, the Serbian-Canadian director and producer Boris Malagurski from Vancouver, author of the film "Kosovo: Can You Imagine?", is dealing with the complex topic of Western involvement in the internal affairs of former Yugoslav republics then and now.")


 * Delete - assuming that the article's claims are correct that (a) he is a filmmaker, (b) he has made the films listed, and (c) they won the awards listed, there is still no assertion in the article that he meets any of the criteria at WP:CREATIVE. There's no evidence of any wide critical attention, his only actual award wins are for awards limited by either or both of a geographic region and an amateur (student) status, and his films are only arguably notable at best.  (I'd strongly suggest his film Kosovo: Can You Imagine might also be an AfD candidate but if not maybe redirect Boris Malagurski to that article.) - DustFormsWords (talk) 08:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me like people want to delete this article because Mr. Malagurski won awards for his student films in the past. So what if he made student films in the past? Lots of people make student films and never make it in a single newspaper, TV channel or film festival. This guy is considered very notable in the Balkans, his work was shown on television, newspapers wrote about him and he was interviewed a bunch of times: *Literárky V Síti, Ministry for Kosovo of the Republic of Serbia, Novinar, Czech Free Press, Bas Biber, Radio Television Vojvodina, International Radio Serbia, Novine, The Diocese of Ras-Prizren and Kosovo and Metohija, Georgia Straight, Edmonton Journal, etc. etc. This guy definitely passes WP:CREATIVE, maybe not with flying colors, but enough to have a page on Wikipedia. Keep this page. --Bolonium (talk) 18:19, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. I believe the reason why the article was deleted the first time is that there were no independent secondary sources - now we have two. Furthermore, as to the notability of the festivals where his films have been shown, just because people in the Western world don't know much about European cinema, doesn't mean that the Palic International Film Festival, which, in the year 2003, with its 10th edition, became a European Film Festival and a member of the European Coordination of Film Festivals, isn't notable, or that the East Sarajevo International Film Festival, which has had South East European premieres of world famous films, isn't notable either. On the contrary. Also, the Mexico International Film Festival, where he won the Silver Palm, is listed under "International Film and Video Festivals" on BritFilms.com - and NOT a student festival.


 * Keep - There are secondary sources that attest to the notability and importance of this person. Widely respected newspapers and magazines have written about him, and his films were shown on International Film Festivals (not just student ones), with some of them winning awards. He's not famous enough to be a household name, but is generally well known in the Balkans, particularly in Serbia and Bosnia. I know it's a bit confusing to see a guy this relatively young achieve so much, but that's no reason to delete the article. -- Cin é ma C 18:32, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - it doesn't matter if there are sources - they're only attesting to the claims in the article. Those claims still don't meet the test at WP:CREATIVE, which means the presumption of notability arguably established through WP:N would in this case be rebutted. - DustFormsWords (talk) 06:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment, actually sub guidelines like MUSIC, BIO, CREATIVE are subordinate to N so if it meets N that's enough even if the sub guideline isn't met. Spartaz Humbug! 11:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - WP:N offers guidelines for a presumption of notability. That presumption is rebuttable (both per policy and per the common sense reasons at WP:MILL).  The secondary guidelines offer guidance as to when that presumption should be sustained.  In this case we would expect a student whose films are accepted into student film festivals to receive coverage by and in relation to those festivals, without either the student of the festival itself being notable.  That's why we have WP:CREATIVE, which he doesn't meet - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Vanity/spam. A completely unnotable film student and an article which presents him like a Steven Spielberg. Note that none of the awards are notable, as previously established, they are all obscure student awards or just obscure. Urban XII (talk) 15:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: The flooding with alleged and/or dubious/low quality sources in Serbian and not in English, most recently at a talk page, does not help Malagurski's cause. Bolonium and Cinéma C are accounts likely controlled by Malagurski or very close friends. I find it hilarious that he claims that the fact that he "has pages on both Serbian and Serbo-Croatian Wikipedias" should be an argument to keep this article. He has created articles about himself in Serbian and Serbo-Croatian. It's called cross-wiki spamming and is hardly an argument to keep an article on a subject whose notability is questioned. I'm surprised that this issue is brought up again, the article was previously deleted after a thorough discussion where all claims to notability were examined, including his "awards" (presented in a deliberately misleading way) and the "sources". The last discussion was also flooded with the same low quality sources by Cinema C (referred to as a "bombardment [which] does not help the keep vote" by one editor). I see no new sources or information this time either, and I think it's time to close this discussion once and for all. PS: This log is particularly enlightening concerning Malagurski and Wikipedia. Urban XII (talk) 16:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I see Boris for the tenth time repeats that "Also, the Mexico International Film Festival, where he won the Silver Palm, is listed under "International Film and Video Festivals" on BritFilms.com - and NOT a student festival". And again: Boris Malagurski was not "the" winner of the Silver Palm Award of the Rosarito festival in Mexico (not exactly Cannes). He was one of 76 winners, one of 14 in the category "Student Films". I find it strange that he repeats again and again that the festival in Rosarito was "NOT a student festival", noone ever said it was. But the fact remains that he won a student award (his name isn't mentioned a single time on the website of the festival, only the title of his student film once in a list). As has been said before, his other awards are less notable than this one, some of them to the point that it's dubious they even exist. Urban XII (talk) 16:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment User:Urban XII has made edits to University of Regensburg (3 edits in July), SOCRATES programme (3 edits on Sept 18) Pope Benedict XVI‎ (6 edits on his early life, 3 on the article itself, all on the same day, Sept 18) and then immediately jumped into deleting this article for the first time, which has nothing to do with the previous areas of interest, on the same day, Sept 18. All the other edits were so minimal that this leads me to the conclusion that this Urban XII has some personal issues with the individual in the article (who apparently edited on Wikipedia and was blocked a few years ago), but this is not the place to discuss it. Evidence that this might be the case can be found on his talk page where, after I left him messages concerning the apparent POV pushing and personal issues he might have with the individual in the article, he replied "Grow up, Boris.", despite the fact that I'm not the user he keeps mentioning. Even here, he accuses me and User:Bolonium of being this individual... WP:RFCU is the appropriate place to make these claims, not here, and not on that article.
 * "Vanity/spam" - untrue. You ignore secondary sources such as Pecat Magazine (page 60), Novinar newspaper and the fact that sources such as the Ministry for Kosovo and Metohija of the Republic of Serbia, Tanjug, Literárky V Síti, Czech Free Press, Biber have all had articles about this individual, including radio interviews on CKUW-FM Radio 95.9, CKCU-FM Radio 93.1, Radio Belgrade 2, and even a report on him on Pink Television
 * "The flooding with [...] sources in Serbian and not in English" - so what if they're in Serbian and not in English? User:Spartaz already said "They are non-english, but that's not relevant". Urban XII claims "He has created articles about himself in Serbian and Serbo-Croatian." What evidence does he have for that? User:Bokim created all these articles, and his name is Boyan (as written on his user page). Before any more bombastic accusations are made, do a Checkuser, then come back with some proof. This way, anybody can make claims without supporting evidence and present them as facts... Besides, now it seems that three users - myself, Bolonium and Bokim are this individual according to you. So, everyone who disagrees with you on this matter, must be Malagurski or "under his control", eh?
 * It is completely clear to anyone who objectively looks at the way you address this issue that you have a problem with this Malagurski individual. The fact that you don't consider him notable doesn't annul the fact that there are secondary sources that talk about this individual which makes him notable enough for Wikipedia. Maybe you don't like his politics or his movies that present Serbs in a better light than the mainstream media, but it doesn't matter here. It's not about personal feelings, it's about Wikipedia rules and guidelines. -- Cin é ma C 17:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment. As someone with no axe to grind in any political or nationalist disputes in the Balkans (but with enough reading knowledge of Serbian to make sense of the sources) I'd like to try to cut to the chase here. The awards that this subject has received or been nominated for don't appear to be enough to grant notability in themselves, so the issue here seems simply to be whether the Pečat and Novinar sources are enough to satisfy the general notability guideline, which asks for "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Both sources have significant coverage of the subject's work, and nobody has suggested that the subject has any control over them, so it comes down to reliability. Pečat, although maybe partisan, appears to be as reliable as many sources that we accept here, with an editorial process, and can be accepted as a source for factual information about the subject and the content of his work, although not necessarily for any interpretation. Novinar, however, aims to publish all submissions ("ima neodoljivu želju da sva vaša elektronska pisma i dopise u najkraćem mogućem roku, odmah publikuje"), so is in effect, a self-published source. It also doesn't publish a street address, which I would expect from any reliable source. We are left with just one source which is focused on the film Kosovo: Can You Imagine? rather than on its director, so I would suggest a redirect to Kosovo: Can You Imagine?. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Student films are not normally notable, and that they win prizes in a category for student films does not make them notable.   DGG ( talk ) 01:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - Quite a bit of reliable sources that discuss the guy in detail. Sure he made student films before, but his most recent ones aren't. Definite keep. --Nogrentain (talk) 05:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This user has made almost no edits, except some edits to the Kosovo talk page (Boris was more or less permanently banned for his activities on this article per ). I don't see any "reliable sources that discuss the guy in detail". I don't see any notable non-student awards. Urban XII (talk) 06:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Here's one and here's another one. Why are you ignoring these sources? User:Spartaz has said they're independent secondary sources that discuss this individual in detail. It's quite obvious you have something against Boris, but keep your personal feelings to yourself, because Boris' alleged previous activity on Wikipedia has no relevance to this discussion. -- Cin é ma C 06:36, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Boris' Wikipedia activity is not something that is "alleged", he self-identified as the great film maker Boris Malagurski. He also previously wrote articles about himself, even after he was banned, that were deleted Urban XII (talk) 08:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't get my point. You could claim to be Boris and I'd find it hard to disprove it... Did you see this person actually create the account with your own eyes? Also, you said "He also previously wrote articles about himself" - another lie. Anybody who clicks your link will see he wrote about the surname Malagurski, the translator Marta Malagurski and the village of Mała Góra. I don't see a "Boris" in there. So please stop trolling here. -- Cin é ma C 17:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * One or two articles about his student project on obscure Serbian websites (one of whom which is a self-published source as pointed out above) do not indicate any notability. If he's such a notable film maker, it should be easy to find articles about him in mainstream English language sources. But of course, since he isn't notable at all, it's not so easy. While he can write about himself in some obscure Serbian Novinar website (and Wikipedia), he can't do it in The Times. Urban XII (talk) 10:13, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Pecat is not an obscure website, it is a popular magazine in Serbia. User:Spartaz repeatedly said the sources don't have to be in English. Just because someone is not well-known in the English speaking world, doesn't make him un-notable for Wikipedia. I'm sure you've never heard of 99.9% of the people that have an article here, and probably at least half don't have a single source in English. If you think notability has to be proven only with English language sources, provide a Wikipedia source for your claims, or stop trolling here. -- Cin é ma C 17:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * I just found this link: Global Research Centre. There are no reasons why this page should be deleted, considering the numerous references provided. Nogrentain (talk) 21:10, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how the link is significant. It's a text in Serbian at a trashy website, dealing with a film project and not Malagurski himself, and is very likely more or less a self-published source like so many of the other "sources". Note that this discussion has likely been the target of a meatpuppet attack (at the best) from accounts primarily obsessed with keeping this article (that was previously already deleted once) at any cost. Urban XII (talk) 04:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * We're all already well aware of your personal feelings towards this individual, but if you think "self-published" texts can be put up on the Global Research website, please write something to them and see if they'll publish it. I think you'll be negatively surprised. Also, the fact that you made so little edits right before you nominated this article for deletion the first time makes it quite evident that you don't have an objective approach to this issue and just don't want, at any cost, this individual to have an article on Wikipedia. Please provide sources for your claims of websites and references being notable enough, User:Spartaz has already confirmed that the Pecat and Novinar sources are secondary, something you keep dismissing without any evidence, except your personal opinion. Also, the creator of the Global Research Centre is Michel Chossudovsky, who has an article on Wikipedia, and is more than notable for his work. But apparently his work is trashy to you, and that's fine - you have a right to your opinion, but it's not worth anything as an argument on Wikipedia. This article should not be deleted. -- Cin é ma C 05:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, my view, is just that an opinion and its down to this discussion if its enough not me. admins dont decide what the conesnsue will be they interpret the consensus that already exists. But yui both would do well to knock off the personal stuff. Spartaz Humbug! 05:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * globalresearch.ca is an obscure one-man website. I found this call for supporters to spam Internet forums particularly interesting: "We encourage our readers to cross-post and/or forward Global Research articles, submit them to internet discussion groups, send them to your friends on your e-mail lists, etc. This will help Global Research in its endeavors." It seems they are publishing virtually anything on their website on a volunteer basis, and I continue to believe this is essentially a self-published source. Also, why is it so difficult to find any sources in mainstream English language media? I disagree that sources solely in Serbian should be sufficient to have a biography in the English language Wikipedia. Especially in a border-line case, at least some third party and quality English language sources are important to establish the notability of the subject. It should be easy to find at least an article or two in, say, The New York Times about an alleged big-time international film maker. Urban XII (talk) 06:14, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Incidentally, the author of the article at globalresearch.ca, Srđan Marjanović (born 1988), seems to be a close collaborator of Malagurski, and globalresearch.ca is listed as the main sponsor of his student project (archived) - note the very small amount ($ 1,965 in total donations) and the pretentious presentation of their "Bronze Sponsor", I think this says everything about how important Malagurski really is. Marjanović, Malagurski's friend and collaborator writes an article in Serbian about their small film project that is published at the website of the small one-man-organisation that has supported the project with a few hundred dollars (becoming "Bronze Sponsor"). As I said, self-published, and not under any circumstance third-party. Urban XII (talk) 06:24, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * First of all, globalresearch.ca is not an obscure one-man website. It is an independent research and media group of progressive writers, scholars and activists.
 * Second of all, this individual is not a big-time international filmmaker and has not made it to large Western-based media articles. He has, however, had articles about him published in Serbian, Czech, German and Bosnian media sources (including Voice of Serbia, in English, albeit fairly short), and what makes him notable is the nature of the sources and depth of coverage (secondary sources such as Pecat and Novinar talk about Malagurski in detail, as well as many others), not the language of the sources.
 * Third of all, where did you get the fact that Srđan Marjanović, the person who wrote the article, was born in 1988? Are you suggesting that this is the same person as Srdjan Marjanović (born in 1988), who is a Swedish defender of Serbian descent who currently plays for Djurgårdens IF? That's the only person with that name who's date of birth I found on the internet. I doubt a Swedish football player writes articles for a German-based newspaper and there are many Srđan Marjanović's in the world (maybe it's the Srđan Marjanović who was President of the Bor Municipality, eh?). However, if you have some evidence of this and other absurd claims, please provide it before making these assumptions.
 * Fourth of all, Global Research is a sponsor of Malagurski's next film, as listed on the web-site of the film, which only makes him even more notable. Michel Chossudovsky, a well known author, who is very notable, has an organization that's supporting Malagurski's next film. Even though I have pointed this out before, I thank you for bringing it up again. All the best, -- Cin é ma C 06:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Global Research does not take responsibility for the accuracy of the articles it publishes, so cannot be accepted as a reliable source. See the disclaimer at the bottom of the page linked above: "... The contents of this article are of sole responsibility of the author(s). The Centre for Research on Globalization will not be responsible or liable for any inaccurate or incorrect statements contained in this article." Phil Bridger (talk) 21:23, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Yea, the author is the one who wrote the Novinar source, which was listed quite a while ago along with the "Pecat" secondary source. Although I have a great respect for Global Research, that is not the source according to which this article should be kept. The main argument for keeping this article has already been addressed before. -- Cin é ma C 23:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Coffee //  have a cup  //  ark  // 21:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Keep The article seems adequately sourced per WP:NOTABLE.  The Pecar source in particular seems to meet all the necessary criteria.  It is secondary, reliable, and removed from the subject.  --Athenean (talk) 01:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * One article in a Serbian magazine is not "significant coverage" in my book and does not meet NOTABLE. The article is deliberately written to look like it's well sourced and to portray him as extremely important, but it has already been pointed out that most of the sources are rather dubious (many of them self-published or equivalent) and the prizes obscure student awards (even if the person is revert-warring to remove this fact from the article). I think it's necessary that English language sources are provided, or else non-Serbian speakers have no way of verifying the notability of this person. (if no English sources can be found, I think that in itself demonstrates that this Canadian film maker is not notable) Urban XII (talk) 09:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep per Bolonium UltraMagnusspeak 10:43, 1 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep For a couple reasons. One, the films produced are notable and the article is sourced. And two, I hate when I am looking for someone and they are not on Wikipedia. When you search for Boris Malagurski the second link is to Wikipedia, and that is where we all want Wikipedia to be(well, the first link is preferable). When you type the name in Google, Google finishes the entry with the subjects name, so people do search for Boris Malagurski. DD2K (talk) 15:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.