Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Brían Nguyen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  09:27, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Brían Nguyen

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Looks like the subject is only notable for one event. --IWI (talk) 16:39, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Women, Fashion, Beauty pageants, Sexuality and gender, Internet,  and New Hampshire.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 16:48, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:BLP1E. Cullen328 (talk) 18:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete. Clear BLP1E. JoelleJay (talk) 20:02, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep Being the first transgender title holder in the entire Miss America organization seems like a pretty notable accomplishment IMO. -- Willthacheerleader18 (talk) 05:10, 18 February 2023 (UTC)


 * Keep. As per @Willthacheerleader18. Criterion 3 of WP:BLP1E is clearly not met, and all must be met for it to apply. Criterion 2 is also unknown, but probably also not met. CT55555 (talk) 05:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * How is it not met? This was a preliminary pageant win that attracted some low-quality (sportskeeda is generally unreliable, NextShark appears to be totally unreliable given their "editorial team" is just a list of their hundreds of mostly-anonymous "contributors") and non-notability-contributing press (the Herald Scotland and ABC4 pieces have just a couple independent sentences on her and the competition, with the majority of independent commentary in the latter conflating Miss America with an entirely different pageant system). That does not indicate it was a "significant event". JoelleJay (talk) 17:32, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * BLP1E has three elements, all which need to be met.
 * And Criterion 3 within it has three sub parts (event not significant or individuals role is not substantial or well documented)
 * I think the event is significant (the first trans winner) and I think Nguyen's role in the event is central and well documented in the source.
 * I do see that it's up for debate how significant an event this is. Someone winning a competition like this, I think is not usually that significant (although I'm amazed how much wikipedia in general focusses on beauty pageant winners and I find it weird). But the first trans winner does seem significant. My perception of the significance is a judgement/opinion and is open to challenge, I see that. But of course, that is just taking criterion 3 in isolation, which makes that matter less, because also we'd have to imagine that Nguyen was likely to remain a low profile individual. Actually also we'd have to think Nyugen has been, this whole time, a low profile individual. Quoting WP:BLP1E: If that person otherwise remains, and is likely to remain, a low-profile individual. but Nguyen is all over the tabloid news, indeed in unreliable sources, so I cannot add them, but clearly Nguyen doesn't meet the definition of WP:LOWPROFILE. I quote from the nutshell summary ...who has not sought public attention.. People entering beauty competitions, are 100% seeking public attention. They are absolutely not low profile individuals. To me BLP1E is therefore clearly not met, probably on 2 out of 3 criteria. CT55555  (talk) 17:50, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Significance is based on the sources, not our personal judgement/opinion. Wikipedia is not a tabloid, and creating a WP:COATRACK in the article of negative opinions about her and the pageant seems problematic generally per WP:BLP. And per WP:LOWPROFILE, she is not a "media personality" nor has she voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities, such as press conferences, promotional appearances, book signings, and the like. She has appeared as a featured performer or speaker for a limited group (Miss Greater Derry), which is a low-profile activity, and she has not/does not appear to [seek] or [hold] a position of pre-eminence, power, or authority in a field of research, a sport, a business market, a political sphere, or other area of human endeavor and she is allegedly notable only for a minor role in one major event, although a local scholarship competition is not a major event based on tabloid and low-quality coverage. We need higher-quality and sustained coverage to support a BLP. Beccaynr (talk) 18:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I respect the views of those who disagree generally and the point about quality and depth of sources is agreeable. However, to say she has not "voluntarily participated in self-publicity activities" seems at odds with that I think a beauty competition is. I don't know much about beauty competitions, but can I persuade you that a trans women choosing to enter one in the US does seem to be at odds with what I think WP:LOWPROFILE is guiding us to consider low profile activities.
 * Of course your rebuttal of my point is wider than that specific point (noting the sourcing issues), but can we at least agree on that? And therefore conclude that she is not low profile? CT55555 (talk) 18:27, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Based on the sources, I applied the factors outlined in the WP:LOWPROFILE essay and included a local news source describing the local pageant as a scholarship competition. An openly trans woman being permitted to enter a low-level competition is included in the Miss America article, but there do not appear to be independent and reliable sources that support the conclusion that this one event is "self-publicity activities" as described in the essay. Perhaps compare the Kataluna Enriquez AfD for a source-based analysis of WP:BLP1E for differences in activity levels and related coverage - when someone is not low-profile, we don't need to debate the technical wording of one part of the essay, we can look to sources and a pattern of activity over time. Beccaynr (talk) 18:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I am not caught up in the technical wording of BLP1E, I believe that I am making a case based on the spirit and intention of the guideline. My understanding of BLP1E is heavily informed by the essay WP:NOTBLP1E.
 * Here's a link to Nguyen being interviewed for the Outsports podcast. Listen from 15m10s onwards.
 * I wonder if you find that persuasive in terms of seeing her as not low profile? CT55555 (talk) 19:13, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * A podcast interview on a sports blogging network does not seem to contribute to a high-profile pattern of activity as described in the WP:LOWPROFILE essay. And I was referring to a debate over technicalities in the WP:LOWPROFILE essay, not WP:BLP1E. Beccaynr (talk) 19:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * People enter pageants for many reasons other than "publicity" and there is no expectation that they will become "public profiles" at such low levels of competition; the people I know who participated did it for the scholarship money, or because they liked to showcase their talents, because it's fun to get glammed up, because they enjoyed performing, because they liked the socializing, etc. It's at best OR to assume that a trans girl did it just to make a statement and not for any of the other reasons girls compete, and even if she's proud to be "the first" with her identity that doesn't mean she wants or will be the subject of continued publicity. JoelleJay (talk) 19:06, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * I just want to clarify that any assumptions I made about motivations applies to trans and cis applicants, indeed I had not considered the wider (educational/prize winning) range of potential motivations beyond fame and profile. So that is helpful feedback and does reduce the strength of my argument. Although please also see the interview I linked to above, which I think supports my (possible initially badly formed) statement about profile. CT55555 (talk) 19:21, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Update: now reconsidering....I think I am right about WP:BLP1E, but I think she may fail WP:GNG. Reassessing, thinking and also waiting to see what others say about that. CT55555 (talk) 18:36, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * While I am mostly arguing the BLP1E point above, I think WP:GNG is really what matters here, as I think BLP1E does not apply. English language alone sources don't appear to support WP:GNG, but there is a lot of Spanish, Russian and other sources on her, but
 * https://1news.az/news/20221110070148123-Transgender-pobedil-na-konkurse-krasoty-ot-Miss-Amerika-FOTO
 * https://www.hispanidad.com/sociedad/eeuu-trans-gana-certamen-belleza-miss-greater-derry-2023-se-lleva-casa-beca-mujeres_12038271_102.html
 * Combined with ABC News here
 * https://abcnews4.com/news/nation-world/trans-contestant-becomes-first-miss-america-winner-at-new-hampshire-beauty-pageant-brian-nguyen
 * I am not certain of a WP:GNG pass, but see this more like a weak keep. I'll more formally update my !vote later, depending on replies above, any source analysis that anyone can offer on the above, still reflecting on this difficult one. CT55555 (talk) 19:27, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 * The 1news.az and Hispanidad pieces are fluff containing mostly primary/non-independent quotes. Nowhere close to SIGCOV, and Hispanidad is employing the usual right-wing tabloid press approach of platforming highly negative tweets instead of writing their own commentary (so as to avoid backlash). These shouldn't be linked on WP at all.
 * And interviews on podcasts don't make someone a public figure. JoelleJay (talk) 23:39, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Shawn Teller (talk) 04:37, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * Delete - I trimmed the "Backlash" subsection in this brief article to remove a negative comment directed at this low-profile Miss Greater Derry winner, but per WP:BLP1E, there still seems to be undue weight on the event. Based on the few available sources, she appears to only be covered in the context of the pageant, the mostly low-quality sources do not seem to support the significance of the event, and her role does not appear substantial nor well-documented. She is already mentioned at the Miss America article, and a redirect could be created. Beccaynr (talk) 13:48, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete per above. I could see this turning around if she goes on to win the notable title of Miss New Hampshire and compete in the main Miss America pageant, at which point she'd meet WP:ANYBIO #1 and possibly #2 as well, but so far she's only won a local competition and is getting above average coverage for the novelty of her being trans. As a fellow queer person I always love to see victories like these for my people, but as a WP editor I have to recognize the rules in place. QuietHere (talk) 14:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
 * comment just pointing out here that we had a similar discussion at Simple English Wikipedia. As an uninvolved admin I closed that one as a keep. My reasons for that were two-fold. 1) there seems to be foreign-language coverage of the event, so it must have generated some media echo 2) given that beauty-pageants are usually unisex (either miss-swimsuit, or mister-swimsuit, but not moe pageant for both), winning such a pageant as a transgender person is quite remarkable.Note however, that our article simple:Brían Nguyen isn't quite the same as yours. Eptalon (talk) 10:28, 26 February 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.