Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Branislav Tošić


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The keep votes are all "meets NFOOTY" and "there must be sources". there's no doubt he meets NFOOTY, but this is merely a presumption of GNG and a presumption that has been challenged. Whilst sources have been added to the article during the discussion, there is clear indication that these are not sufficient for significant coverage. At best one brief article specifically on the player has been found, whic is just not enough. If sources can be found to satisfy GNG in the future then there is no reason why this cannot be recreated, but we're not even close at this stage. Fenix down (talk) 10:35, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

Branislav Tošić

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

May not meet Notability guidelines and unreferenced. Theprussian (talk) 11:05, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Serbia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 11:13, 3 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - 54apps 7gls 23apps 1gl in WP:FPL-listed leagues (Serbian SuperLiga, Serbian First League ) - per Soccerway. Pretty clear pass of WP:NFOOTY. R96Skinner (talk) 12:01, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Not that it makes a huge difference, but I think only the 23 SuperLiga games count, because per WP:FPL, Serbian First League was only fully-pro since 2016, and this player played there in 2011–2012. – Levivich 02:41, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Oops, good spot! Amended. R96Skinner (talk) 10:26, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete WP:NFOOTY doesn't override WP:GNG per WP:ATH FAQ Q1: "The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline". So the fact he meets them is irrelevant. As someone who is from Serbia, I was unable to find reference that is covering him indepth. Fails WP:BASIC. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 18:23, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep passes WP:NFOOTY and  is currently playing.SNGs including WP:FOOTY exist to provide for the inclusion of certain defined subjects that cannot immediately be shown to pass GNG. An SNG provides for a presumption of notability, not a presumption of non-notability An SNG cannot be used to exclude/delete an article when the subject passes GNG, but the reverse is patently absurd because that would negate the entire reason for the existence of SNGs.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 23:18, 3 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete – does not meet GNG, despite meeting NFOOTBALL. Per soccerway, the player's 23 games in Serbian SuperLiga in the 2012–2013 season break down into 12 games with Donji Srem (which had just been promoted to SuperLiga, never had a winning season in the league, and would be relegated two years later), and 11 with Hajduk Kula (which resigned from the league and dissolved in July 2013). Since then, the player has apparently been playing in the third-tier non-FPL-listed Serbian League Vojvodina. I cannot find GNG coverage, and I don't think this is a matter of lack of access to sources. For example, I found coverage in the same time period of Branislav Tošić, the last shoemaker in Pirot, and Branislav Tošić, an officeholder in Vladičin Han    , and a third person with that name , but as for the footballer, just a brief mention in a game report . Seems like a total GNG fail; without sources, we can't write an article about this player, so despite meeting NFOOTBALL, delete. – Levivich  02:41, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. GiantSnowman 09:54, 4 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - long (and ongoing) career including many appearances in FPL - meets WP:NFOOTBALL. I refuse to believe there aren't more sources out there, especially given age and language issues which are likely hindering online searches. GiantSnowman 09:56, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:THEREMUSTBESOURCES. Sorry, but your argument is completely invalid (saying this as a guy from Serbia who conducted the search as well). Maybe he will be notable in the future, but he isn't now. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 10:15, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Agreed... The 8 articles from the 2010s written in 5 different Serbian publications, which I posted above, suggest to me that there are no "age and language issues which are likely hindering online searches". GS, which publications do you think might have significant coverage of this player, but are not online? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Levivich (talk • contribs)
 * Comment I feel like too many users are starting to ignore WP:ATH's relation to WP:GNG, and all should be discounted by the closing admin as not based in policy/guideline. If someone is not happy with that, they can start looking for consensus on WP:ATH's talk page to remove "The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline" part instead of flooding most of these football AfDs with generic WP:JUSTAVOTE throwing of "meets WP:FOOTY". That needs to stop. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 10:16, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete fails to have any verifiable sources. I would also suggest tightening WP:NFOOTBALL to be a better predictor of passing WP:GNG since so many footballer articles end up here at AfD. Rockphed (talk) 16:28, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - Article about footballer who played two seasons in the fully-pro Superliga, but for whom there is only routine online coverage. Similar to Levivch, I found more coverage of the Vladičin Han councilman with the same name. The footballer is mentioned in dozens of match reports, but typically these reports just indicate he was in the squad and maybe provide a rating for his play. I did find a more detailed match report here, on Page 47 in an offline newspaper (Reč naroda) but it appears to just praise his play in a single game (from before Donji Srem was playing the Superliga). It is difficult to believe there isn't more coverage (particularly offline), but I can't find it and don't believe this article can satisfy the GNG. Jogurney (talk) 16:41, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Spent some time on this one. Initially thought this was one of the "greyest" AfDs I had come across - Tošić had passed the WP:NFOOTY guideline by leaps and bounds, and yet I kept running into the same problems some of the other !voters have with the sources. I've now gone ahead and added prose and referenced the article and have written a stub about the player's career. What's especially difficult is the differing levels of coverage from country to country, and I've been thinking a lot about how this plays into athlete notability guidelines, especially with the oppose on 's admin request, and a cricket DRV. Going off of Tošić for a second, I like the test: has the player done something notable (WP:NFOOTY, but not always)? and can we write a properly sourced stub about the player (WP:GNG, WP:BLP1E)? As noted, Tošić clearly passes WP:NFOOTY, and the article is now a properly sourced stub. The article's sourcing isn't the greatest (only one article directly on him, from his time in the third division, one of the four non-Soccerway cites is primary, and it took a fair amount of searching to get enough hits due to the common name/Latin and Cyrillic issues) but there's lots of routine coverage of him as well. I found another offline newspaper apart from Jogurney which claims to discuss him (though I couldn't find the citation as it did not allow me to search in Cyrillic) which also gives me hope other offline sources exist and this can be expanded further, especially from the area around Srem, but I think we're now at a point where the encyclopedia would get worse if we delete this article. SportingFlyer  T · C  20:07, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment Yeah, no. Sadly, none of the added sources meet WP:SIGCOV.
 * 1. Soccerway listing.
 * 2. Not in-depth (Po opštim ocenama, trenutno najbolji fudbaler lidera Srpske lige - Vojvodina, Donjeg Srema iz Pećinaca, je brzonogi Branislav Tošić. Kontinuitet odličnih igara iz prvog dela sezone nije prekidao ni u dva prolećna kola: u Temerinu je svojim golom „načeo“ Slogu, dok je protiv Palića bio jedini strelac.), the rest being what Tošić has said about his game (WP:PRIMARY).
 * 3. A name drop.
 * 4. A passing mention (Branislav Tošić pošto je istekao ugovor o ustupanju i on se vratio u matični klub Donji Srem.)
 * 5/6. Same as 3.

Sadly, still a failure of WP:GNG. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 22:34, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I disagree fervently - I think #2 is in depth, and is similar to the type of coverage you see of players in the exYug areas. There's a lot of other routine sources you can scrape together, so it's not as if this is the entirety of the coverage. I do a lot of my editing in Balkans/African football precisely because I use Wikipedia as a starting point for a lot of things I end up researching, and have become involved because the encyclopaedia is deficient in a lot of areas - while I'm not sure I would ever research Tošić specifically, the article is now at a point where it's adequately referenced, can be expanded, and would be of general use to anyone researching players in the SuperLiga, especially by someone with access to offline sources. SportingFlyer  T · C  22:47, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * I respect you and your editing work a ton, but two sentences + quotation of what the subject said is in no way WP:SIGCOV. Also WP:MUSTBESOURCES shuts down your offline argument. We can't assume there are offline sources when we don't have evidence for it. Fails WP:GNG, which overwhelms WP:ATH. "general use to anyone researching players in the SuperLiga", well....Wikipedia isn't a football directory (Soccerway exists). Jovanmilic97 (talk) 23:02, 6 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Let's try this for WP:MUSTBESOURCES: Tošić scored in the 62nd minute of this game and started against Crvena Zvezda at Rajko Mitić stadium here, both in 2013, the second game of which is on YouTube. I'm drawing a line in the sand here since I'd be shocked if neither of these games were written about in periodicals and would be shocked if no one wrote about him while he was in the SuperLiga, but I can't find any Serbian periodicals which would have a match report apart from mondo.rs, where he does get a couple passing mentions. . SportingFlyer  T · C  00:12, 7 September 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment – This article, post-HEY, is very good given the available sourcing, showcasing SF's talents as an editor and writer. I agree it meets WP:V and is well-written. I'd love to change my !vote to "Keep because SF put time into this and did a good job." But, alas, for me to do so would be WP:ILIKEIT. Notability of a subject is independent from quality of an article; just like a poorly-written article should be kept if the subject is notable, a well-written article should still be deleted if the subject is not notable. And it's not just a matter of taking the notability guideline and imposing it like a strict rule; I think there is a very good reason to delete this article:This article gets less than one page view per day: 190 page views from Jan–Aug 2019; Sep 1 is the 244th day of the year . It is not of interest to readers of enwiki. (Also, it's further evidence that "#-of-apps-in-an-FPL" is not a good way to predict notability.) Every page requires editor-hours to build and maintain, and our limited editor-hours are better spent on article subjects that are of interest to readers. There are, no doubt, many other Serbian football players who readers are interested in, and we should free up our resources to focus on those articles, instead of this one. – Levivich 00:19, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * please be careful - you removed my comment discussing WP:MUSTBESOURCES (I've added it back into its proper place and am WP:AGF.) Also, page views have no relevance to notability, and it has interest to me as an English-speaker: I spent a couple hours performing the WP:HEY, and genuinely want to know which Serbian sources I should be searching the archives for given I would know exactly where to look if he had played in the Croatian league. SportingFlyer  T · C  00:56, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the ec. – Levivich 01:16, 7 September 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.