Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Breathless Mahoney


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Closing per the withdrawal by the nominator, the improvements, and what appears to be a easily obtained consensus process at this point Sadads (talk) 16:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Breathless Mahoney

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I am not seeing any source that discusses this character for more then a single sentence. Mentions are in passing and generally WP:PLOT summaries. Seems to fail GNG/NFICTION. Bottom line, this fictional character has not been subject to any in-depth analysis I have been able to find (nor anyone else, so far). While I appreciate new sources added after my prod by User:Toughpigs (who also removed the prod), I am afraid they do not change my prod rationale. Neither appears to be more than a passing remark about the topic. At best this can be SOFTDELETED by redirecting it to Dick Tracy. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Toughpigs (talk) 21:54, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Blank & Redirect to Dick Tracy. No reliable in-depth sources found to assert notability . Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:17, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep:

"From Dick Tracy's Cityscape, Yearbook of the Association of Pacific Coast Geographers (1993): "Breathless Mahoney is transformed in the movie. Originally presented, in 1946, as a psychopathic thief who stabbed a man in the back with a pair of pruning shears, Breathless in the 1980s is an intelligent criminal as well as beautiful night club singer. Vamp and femme fatale, in some respects she plays a timeless role. In this morality play it is inevitable that she will pay for her selfishness and passion with her life. Where Tracy represents day, she represents night. While Tracy fights to protect the city from evil, Breathless is only concerned with her own future and, like Big Boy Caprice, with her desire to "own" the city. As No Face, she matches Tracy in intelligence. Breathless, in the film, provides a complex, more 1980s, opposition of good and evil, moral and amoral.""

"From "So Much More: The Music of Dick Tracy", American Music (2004): "When we do see and hear "More" again [sung by Breathless Mahoney], it is before an audience at the Club Ritz and is much more polished than in our first encounter with the piece. The ragged rehearsal gives way to a stellar performance. And in this performance we begin to understand the subversive meaning of the song. What at first seemed like harmless flirtation of a woman who never got enough is now enacted before us as Big Boy's downfall at the hands of Breathless. She intends to run his racket and has set a trap for him. As Big Boy's stooges attempt to shoot it out with the cops outside, as tommy guns rage, as patrons and chorines rush for écover, Breathless, undaunted, standing erect and triumphant, sings on. Flirtation gives way to victorious rapacity, and the genre of the musical itself is turned inside out in the song's successful performance. There is no sweat or tears to applaud. We celebrate more, more, and still more murderous mayhem as the song continues.""

""Drop-Dead Looks", The Sydney Morning Herald (1990): "[Grace Bros] is using the film to describe fashion... "singing canary yellow, rock'em sock'em red, payola green, Breathless Mahoney blue and good-guy-bad-guy black and white." Madonna, as Breathless, is seen in a variety of cling-film black satin, lace, sequined or silver lamé dresses in the film. There has already been a rush on look-alike clothes and wigs in Sydney... "The 18-to-21-year-old end of the market insist on it for their new Breathless Mahoney look," says the shop's owner, Lynette Kirsten.""

""Dick Tracy inspires some arresting looks", The Lancaster Intelligencer Journal (1990): "The movie isn't scheduled for release until June, but several firms already have entered the movie-marketing madness with garments patterned after the film's primary personalities, the seductive Breathless Mahoney and the block-jawed detective himself. A Los Angeles firm even has signed up to create drop-dead Breathless Mahoney dresses fit for a movie goddess. L.A. Glo has created a dress collection inspired by the movie torch singer, played by Madonna. The dresses, which cost from $70 to $180, are already in local department and specialty stores.""

""Fashion detectives can track down 1940s duds", Oceanside North County Times (1990): "To achieve the seductive Breathless Mahoney look, you can buy dresses inspired by the torch singer played by Madonna. The after-5 dresses from a California firm, L.A. Glo, are done in stretch satins, crepe, chiffon and lamé and retail between $70 and %180. "In the collection, I tried to incorporate '40s details such as halter neck, spaghetti straps dripping in rhinestones, feather sleeves, plunging necklines and deep side-slit skirts," California designer Irene Zibecchi said from her office. "These are the details a woman wants in a dress to look like a glamorous superstar on the dance floor."... Breathless Mahoney's look can also be found in vintage clothing stores. Many '30s and early-'40s evening dresses boast halter and sweetheart necklines and slim or bias-cut skirts.""

""Not Left Breathless: Tracy's Fashion Statement Makes Barely a Whisper: "A handful of St. Louis prom queens got there first. They bought the Breathless Mahoney dresses long before Madonna's character began slinking her way across the new Dick Tracy movie screen. Breathless-labeled gowns were shipped to stores around the country, including Berrybridge in St. Louis, as early as March, months before release of what movie moguls hoped would be the biggest blockbuster of the summer. Even more of the Breathless styles are to be delivered next month.""


 * References


 * -- Toughpigs (talk) 05:21, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Setting aside whether Lancaster Intelligencer Journal is reliable enough or too niche (local), it is a helpful find (good job), through I think only one source can be said to be about the character. Is this enough for in-depth? At two-three sentences? Borderline, but again, helpful. One more find like this and this can start meeting GNG requirement for multiple in-depth sources. And no, sorry, second source you cite doesn't even mention the character by name, and the others are really in-passing. The movie got reviewed, the reviews mention the character occasionally, but in the end, an in-depth source is ideally a source about the character, or one that dedicates at least a good-sized paragraph to their analysis (that goes beyond a plot summary). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:44, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I just posted six paragraphs from six different sources. -- Toughpigs (talk) 05:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks, but as I said above, I think only the first one may meet GNG in-depth coverage requirements, and that's being charitable and saying that in-depth can be defined as four sentences or so. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:48, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Read the second one again. It is about the song "More", as sung by Breathless Mahoney in the movie. It says "Breathless". She is the singer that that paragraph is discussing. The others are about the temporary fashion craze that Breathless Mahoney inspired across America and Australia in 1990. None of them are movie reviews, and none of them are plot summary. -- Toughpigs (talk) 05:53, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, it's about the song. It mentions the singer (BM) in passing. What's your point, except to prove it is a very bad source (WP:NOTINHERITED, again)? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's some more from the same article:

"Is the song speaking of Tracy nabbing Big Boy? Or is it of Breathless nabbing Tracy, as the camera pans over to the Club Ritz, where Breathless is entertaining the club owner and her boyfriend, Lips Manlis? In fact, it is both, as its reprise midway through the film demonstrates. There the song begins in the Club Ritz, with Breathless entertaining mobster Big Boy and his crowd, whereupon the police conduct a mock raid in order to plant a bug in Big Boy's war room. Breathless keeps singing, and the song continues, removed from its club context, as an accompaniment to a montage of images showing Tracy cracking down on the criminals... Yet one of the final montage images is Tracy, phallic tommy gun in hand, shadowed by a still larger image of Breathless uttering the song's final lines: "This time I'm not only getting, I'm holding my man." The longest head shot of Breathless comes when, focusing directly on Tracy, she sings, "And no one I've kissed, babe, ever fights me again." Both are relentless in their quest for domination, but since good triumphs over evil in the comic-book world -- and since sex is evil -- we know in advance that Breathless's pursuit will come to naught.""


 * -- Toughpigs (talk) 05:59, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Right. I'd totally vote keep if the AfD concerned I'm Breathless. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:35, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Blank & Redirect Totally agree that the coverage is trivial. Except for maybe the one source above, but that's not enough. Although, redirecting to the Dick Tracy article seems fine. Also, as a side, I'm pretty lukewarm on the long quotes. It's not like people can't just visit the sources and read the quotes themselves. The AfD page is already long enough as it is. Not that I haven't made it longer with my long winded posts once or twice, but that's a different thing. --Adamant1 (talk) 07:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Merge with Dick Tracy, a merge-target that could have been found by just reading teh article. WP:POINT-nomination after a shot down PROD. The Banner  talk 09:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per the sources identified by . Additionally, this book discusses both the comic strip and film character in depth, and this book dedicates several pages about sexism and gender roles in relation to her film character. This book includes some discussion of her as well, and it appeara there are other examples on Google Books too... — Hunter Kahn 11:45, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Neither of those sources appear in depth, few sentences here and there, I don't think there is a single paragraph about her in any of them. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:04, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect - Half a dozen trivial mentions do not establish notability. Maybe draft it if anyone is interested in scouring really old print sources for possible significant coverage. TTN (talk) 12:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per User:Toughpigs. A merge discussion could later be held. When there is no case possible for deletion, an AfD should not be started. Here, in addition, the article was also prodded. That is a serious breach of policy. gidonb (talk) 12:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * When the article was prodded, (old version), there was nothing to merge (all content was already present in any related target articles). --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 13:02, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Totally irrelevant! Per WP:PRD "PROD must only be used if no opposition to the deletion is expected." Here not just some object but EVERYONE objects to your AfD. What part of "must" is unclear? Prods are for writers who self-publish a book and now create an article on themselves and one for the book. These kind of things. You use PROD as peanuts. gidonb (talk) 13:40, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Redirect to List of Dick Tracy characters where she is already covered. The sourcing, as mentioned, is pretty sparse and probably not enough to sustain an independent article.  The entry in the Character List is also pretty much the entirety of the information that is in her own article, so I don't really see much that needs to be merged, but the history will still be intact if anyone sees anything that should be moved over. Rorshacma (talk) 16:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. I still think some of the added sources are somewhat questionable as far as how much significance they give to this specific character, but the article has certainly been expanded enough where a simple Redirect as I initially proposed would no longer be appropriate.  Rorshacma (talk) 16:16, 29 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep per significant coverage from reliable sources. In addition to what has been highlighted above, Dick Tracy and American Culture: Morality and Mythology, Text and Context has numerous sentences about Breathless, including a very solid paragraph on page 279. The Encyclopedia of Sexism in American Films discusses her, especially in contrast to Tess Trueheart. Madonna as Postmodern Myth: How One Star's Self-Construction Rewrites Sex, Gender, Hollywood and the American Dream has quite a bit about Madonna's portrayal (in terms of how the character comes across, not just acting). Erik (talk &#124; contrib) (ping me) 22:44, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: I felt some of the sources that have been cited in this AFD discuss the character in greater depth than some of the votes indicate. So to try to illustrate this, I expanded the article slightly, particularly trying to show that there is more to say about this character than simply plot summary, but there is also some historical context and thematic analysis to be had here. Please note this is NOT meant to be the full extent to which this article can be improved, but only a bit of expansion from the handful of sources found so far. I am confident there are other sources that could be found with further searching, but I don't have time to go full WP:HEY and expand this one anymore right now because I have other wiki-priorities I need to focus on. Still though, I think the expansion that has occurred so far more than shows the article meets notability requirements and should be kept. (Note:, my edits may have conflicted a bit with your own, so if so, I apologize, and feel free to add back anything.) — <b style="color:#C0C0C0">Hunter</b> <b style="color:#595454">Kahn</b> 23:57, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Withdraw. User:Hunter Kahn and User:Toughpigs have squeezed more of those sources than I thought would be possible. I could nitpick some stuff, but... I don't think it would be productive. If the article was in its current shape I would neither nominate it for deletion nor endorse it. Good job. --<sub style="border:1px solid #228B22;padding:1px;">Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:14, 29 February 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.