Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/British Collegiate American Football League


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Spartaz Humbug! 05:07, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

British Collegiate American Football League

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Non-notable and defunct British University American Football league. Sports teams (and their leagues) at British Universities aren't generally notable. In the majority of cases they are unheard of even on campus. In terms of leagues and organisations, the once exception may be British Universities and Colleges Sport (nee BUSA) which acts as a "holding organisation" that runs most/all of these leagues. BCAFL doesn't appear to be an exception to this rule. A google search turns up little beyond sites directly related to the teams that participated in the league.

As a guide in considering whether to bring this Afd, I noted the following essay for soccer notability. Although the wrong type of football, it seems a fair guide to me:
 * Are members are eligible for national cups: AFAICT, No.
 * Is the league at the country's highest level: No. That is BAFL and its successors.
 * Does it meet broader WP:N criteria: AFAICT, no.

The article is also unreferenced, and given the lack of independent and/or reliable sources, for what is now a defunct league (and thus not generating coverage), I see no prospect of referencing it. Pit-yacker (talk) 17:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  —Pit-yacker (talk) 18:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete if anything, it might be worth keeping the info in another article and perhaps making this a re-direct.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:38, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:GNG. The article is entirely unreferenced and given the lack of available references it seems unlikely that it is possible to write a policy-compliant article on the subject. Pfainuk talk 22:36, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep It lasted for more than 20 years and it was the predecessor of the British Universities American Football League. I'm getting pretty tired of the "I know that most British people don't care about this" argument, and while that probably is enough to deem individual college clubs to be non-notable, there's no reason to carry it over to erasing all mention of the subject.  In the United States, colleges and university students form clubs to play sports that aren't funded by the university itself.  Most U.S. college rugby clubs operate this way, with the students making agreements about when to play, how to determine a "champion", etc.  When the students of different colleges travel to face the students in other colleges, even if it's for a "foreign" sport, it's notable.  Mandsford 01:18, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * If it lasted for 20 years, so what? If it's the predecessor to the BUAFL, which itself also probably fails WP:GNG, then so what?  The fact remains that there do not appear to be any independent reliable sources on the subject, and so this league fails WP:GNG.


 * And would be the same in almost any British university sport. It doesn't matter what the origin of the sport is, except inasmuch as the fact that American Football is popular in a country where university leagues and teams in major sports are generally notable encourages people from that country to assume that the culture is the same elsewhere.  And it isn't.  If we had articles on five dozen university hockey teams and the BUCS hockey leagues, then exactly the same reasoning would apply as applies to American football. Pfainuk talk 08:40, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Its not about it being a foreign sport. University sport isn't notable in the UK period. Even most students on campus don't know what there teams are up to, often they don't know the teams exist.  There are very few exceptions to this rule.  I can think of only one - The boat race.  What happens in the US is irrelevant to this AFD, as there is a completely different culture in the British HE sector, and the organisation of university sports is completely different (e.g. AFAIK, university sports and societies are quite lavishly funded by universities.  Since, the majority of HE funding still comes from central government, ultimately the taxpayer). Pit-yacker (talk) 10:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep - from a Google News archive search, it seems to be clearly notable. --B (talk) 22:31, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - On the whole, the articles seem to be, usually patchy coverage, in local papers (typical circulation 50,000) of the local university's team. As far as the league itself is concerned, most do little more than acknowledge its existence.  That is, they say something along the lines of "local team is playing/played a match in BCAFL".   The best that is going to give us is references for some odd results in section 3. What about the rest of the article? Pit-yacker (talk) 19:07, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Its also worth adding that the vast majority of the coverage in both old and new leagues surrounds about 3 teams coming from 4 titles. Birmingham Lions (largely Birmingham Mail (nee Evening Mail) and occasional Birmingham Post). Bath Killer Bees (Bath Chronicle). Cardiff Cobras (South Wales Echo).Pit-yacker (talk) 19:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, JForget  22:35, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - Fully notable. See Touchdown: UK by Nick Richards (2009; Milton Keynes: AuthorHouse. ISBN 9781438929316). SteveStrummer (talk) 05:15, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * SteveStrummer's link demonstrates that the topic of American football in the UK may well be notable. But the UK's American Football culture (such as it is) is and has always been far more geared toward the NFL than toward the domestic game.  The best idea we have of the contents of the book are the two reviews, both of which mention one league: the NFL.  The "golden decade" to which the title refers is the 80's, when the NFL was on television.  Meanwhile, the page does not mention university or the BCAFL or indeed domestic American Football at all.  I would contend that the existence of this book, without any evidence that it even mentions the topic at hand, does not demonstrate significant coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject. Pfainuk talk 06:41, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment per Pfainuk. Has anyone actually read the book Steve Strummer's suggests? Can he, or anyone confirm significant, or any mention, of BCAFL? I find it far more likely that the book concerns Channel 4's coverage of NFL, together with (non-student teams) such as the London Monarchs, which did, albeit briefly, register on the general radar in the UK.  I ask for confirmation, as without wishing to be rude, SteveStrummer's contributions at Articles for deletion/Derby Braves a) suggest he hasn't. b) Appear to come from a starting point that US college teams are notable so UK teams must also, and that there might be as yet undiscovered sources to prove this. c) That proof of notability of American Football in the UK is proof of notability of particular student related teams or leagues Pit-yacker (talk) 10:33, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.