Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bruenor Battlehammer (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. Arguments in favor of keep relied on past AfDs and the improvement since, but this has little bearing for this AfD, which concerns the current (and projected future) state of this article. Despite some secondary sources, the article still largely fails PLOT, and consensus leaned towards that this topic shouldn't have a stand-alone article. Merge seems to be the best option under these circumstances. – sgeureka t•c 08:28, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Bruenor Battlehammer
AfDs for this article: 
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Fictional character. The entry is long, and that's about all that it has going for it - pure WP:PLOT and list of appearances in media. Fails NFICTION/GNG Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  05:17, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete. Fails NFICTION/GNG. Pure PLOT. Kacper IV (talk) 12:47, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per prior AFD or merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. BOZ (talk) 13:19, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fantasy-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:41, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep. This article passed the previous AFD unanimously, and then subsequently passed a related deletion review sponspored by the original nominator, also unanimously.  It has been substantially modified since then to improve the referencing and reduce the in-world/ploy synopsis issues. This nomination is part of a series of nominations for deletion of fictional characters/elements by a single editor, who, by their own admission, is "suffering from fancruft overdose" (see WP:Articles for deletion/Mega-City One); and WP:FANCRUFT does not qualify as a valid argument for deletion.  The character referenced by this article is a major character in a fictional series of books and as such is inherently notable.Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 16:07, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - I mean, I actually disagree with flat out deletion for this, but most of your arguments here for a speedy keep is kind of a checklist of things that aren't valid AFD arguments, like WP:ATTP or WP:NOTINHERITED.Rorshacma (talk) 16:39, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete or redirect. The only source is a trivial Top X list. Previous AfDs are irrelevant if enough time has passed. Articles must be assessed by current standards. There's no real world information aside from the one irrelevant source, so it fails WP:PLOT and WP:WAF. TTN (talk) 16:11, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. I'm actually kind of shocked that there aren't actual useful sources on him, considering that he is one of the main characters of the Drizzt novels.  But, outside of primary sources and plot summaries of those primary sources, I'm not really finding anything outside of things like brief announcements that he will be appearing in various video games or D&D adventures.  The List of Forgotten Realms characters is currently a huge mess that needs some massive culling/cleaning, but Bruenor is actually one of the few characters that should probably be on it.  Rorshacma (talk) 16:35, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * keep I reviewed the previous AfD discussion and found the keep arguments compelling. The article has arguably improved since then and GNG remains satisfied in my opinion.  AugusteBlanqui (talk) 17:04, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * How does a single secondary source satisfy GNG? No other source provides non-primary information, so they are irrelevant in establishing notability. TTN (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * By my count there are four secondary, independant sources on the article as it current stands (references 1, 3, 4, and 8), and four secondary but non-independant sources (2, 9, 10, and 11). As previously noted in the last AFD, the primary source material are Bob Salvatore's novels including this character (and others currently up for deletion); Bob Salvatore has specifically declared that he created and owns the characters, not Wizards of the Coast/TSR. That makes the Wizards of the Coast manuals and other game-specific publications secondary, non-independent sources (WP:Secondary does not mean independent would seem to be applicable here).Vulcan&#39;s Forge (talk) 17:24, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Per WP:WAF and WP:PLOT, fictional articles must be geared towards a real world perspective. If a source does not provide real world information, it cannot be said to have significant coverage on the topic, so any source that fails to do so is irrelevant. You trying to wikilawyer for primary sources to qualify as secondary does not help regardless. TTN (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete true, secondary does not mean independent. Which is why to count towards GNG a source must be both secondary and independent. At best we have one secondary source. GNG says we need multiple such sources. So we should delete this article.John Pack Lambert (talk) 02:38, 29 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete - the arguments put forth by John Pack Lambert, TTN and the nom appear to be the most accurate assessment of sourcing, and as such fails WP:GNG.  Onel 5969  TT me 19:56, 30 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. I've reviewed the sources in this revision. 5, 6, and 7 are direct from the novels, so can't establish notability. 2, 8, 9, and 10 are published by Wizards of the Coast. There's always been debate about whether they are independent sources, but I believe they're fairly substantial. 1 is a good source, but only a passing mention in the context of a brief description of the trilogy of novels. I can't figure out how substantial 3 is, but it seems like a good source. In the article it's only used to reference a minor detail (being friends with Drizzt) so there might not be anything else to it. 4 is the source that can most easily be seen to be decent, but it's still just a single paragraph. It's possible there are other profiles of the character somewhere, but I went through pages of search results and couldn't find any. There's enough sourced material to include some content in the character list though. —Torchiest talkedits 02:51, 1 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. Lightburst (talk) 21:50, 3 December 2019 (UTC)
 * Merge to List of Forgotten Realms characters. I agree with Torchiest's comments  - Jay (talk) 05:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.