Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bucher aircraft tractor (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  11:41, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Bucher aircraft tractor
AfDs for this article: 
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Fails WP:GNG, just an auxiliary tool. Hardly any independent sources, both in English and German. The Banner talk 20:37, 2 April 2017 (UTC) Note: this is a second nomination, but I do not know how to add the box with prior AfDs. Usually Twinkle does that for me, but that had a hiccup. The Banner talk 20:56, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * KEEP, Vehicles are important enough for wikipedia. Also aircraft tugs /tractors.. This second nomination is just an other "witchhunt" from The Banner against articels I had written. Also he tried to hide this nomination for deletion from me, he had not.FFA P-16 (talk) 21:04, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I have add now some more sources we have a book and also the offical Datashed from the VBS:

FFA P-16 (talk) 21:21, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Military vehicles database: Bucher FS 10 - Official Swiss Armed Forces website
 * Markus Hofmann: Fahrzeuge der Schweizer Armee, 2015, ISBN 978-3-033-05038-9.
 * if you did not see the nomination straight away, sorry. Twinkle was having some hiccups. But it would be nice when you come with independent sources and not with accusations. The Banner talk 22:03, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * OK, sorry for that one with the Twinkle problem. We have independent sources: This Aircraft tractor was build(manufactured and sold) from Bucher, we have here a source from the VBS (No.1) Military vehicles database: Bucher FS 10 - Official Swiss Armed Forces website the VBS is the goverment and not a Company, we have the Book from Markus Hofmann (No2)Fahrzeuge der Schweizer Armee, 2015, ISBN 978-3-033-05038-9. And we have the online infos about it from a second Bookwriter (for eg. Die Panzer der schweizer Armee von 1920 bis 2008) Urs Heller (No3) Bucher FS 10 - www.militaerfahrzeuge.ch; Swiss Military Vehicles unofficial website. Also the Museum in Full is interpendend.FFA P-16 (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep regarding the WP:NVEHICLES I cannot see a reason to delete this tow tractor especially since there's apparently no new argument since the first attempt. --MBurch (talk) 19:29, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
 * That is just an essay, no guideline or policy. The Banner talk 13:44, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Transportation-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of Switzerland-related deletion discussions. North America1000 00:19, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

@MilborneOne also specialised vehicles are notable for wikipedia.. it is not an limited use vehicle, it is used for F5E, F-5F, F/A-18C, F/A-18D, Superpuma, Cougar, Falcon 900, and will be used for the Pilatus PC-24 = most of the Aircraft intype and numbers of the Swiss Air Force. Also it is used to transport Missiles, External Tanks and spare parts on the Tarmac and aircraftcaverns.FFA P-16 (talk) 13:24, 7 April 2017 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete very specialised and limited use vehicle which really only needs a mention at Bucher-Guyer or better a List of aircraft ground equipment all of which was suggested at the last AfD. MilborneOne (talk) 07:58, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -  C HAMPION  (talk) (contributions) (logs) 04:57, 9 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep It doesn't appear to be outstandingly non-notable. Although WP:NVEHICLES is only an essay, I think it should give weight. -- Iazyges   Consermonor   Opus meum  20:25, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete -- highly specialised piece of gear; I would have said redirect to Bucher-Guyer or a List of aircraft ground equipment but none exist. Sources are close to primary and / or catalogs of military equipment which do not count towards GNG. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:11, 16 April 2017 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   12:55, 17 April 2017 (UTC) FFA P-16 (talk) 13:05, 22 April 2017 (UTC) ISBN 978-3-033-05038-9 google the isbn.FFA P-16 (talk) 13:48, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete - No reliable secondary sources per WP:GNG. Better to create an article on Bucher-Guyer, assuming it can pass GNG. - BilCat (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Reliable secondary sources: Markus Hofmann: Fahrzeuge der Schweizer Armee, 2015, ISBN 978-3-033-05038-9.
 * Blogs are not reliable secondary sources. - BilCat (talk) 13:22, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Its not a Blog! ISBN Number! A blog has no ISBN. Its a book written by Markus Hofmann name of the Book is "Fahrzeuge der Schweizer Armee", ISBN 978-3-033-05038-9 It has 320 pages, 900 pictures covers the vehicles from 1900 to 2015, Hardcover, Format 240×280 mm, Autor Markus Hofmann, Co-Autoren Max Martin and Christoph Zimmerli.. that is what you can finde about this with this link.
 * According to the link a non-existing ISBN. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 18:55, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
 * The Wikipedia ISN is not complete, that why I had add the link.. But (like you knew perfect)  by using google with the ISB you finde this Book  and   also  just use googel with "Fahrzeuge der Schweizer Armee" FFA P-16 (talk) 20:14, 22 April 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom and as per my arguments in the first AfD. As usual, FFA P-16 claims victimization. He has tried to back up his keep !vote by finding more sources but these reinforce how far the subject actually falls short of the threshold of Notabiity, being passing mentions, database listings etc. YSSYguy (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * It is nothing wrong with finding more sources. This is now a source more than in your first AfD. So the situation is because of this more on the keep side. We have some datas in German about it. And, the most important, we have now an interpendend Book, this should be enough weight.FFA P-16 (talk) 14:33, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * With the book being about every vehicle ever used by the Swiss military, I would be very much surprised if any mention of an aircraft tug with total production of less than a hundred will provide the weight that is required. What does it contain, one paragraph? Two? Less? YSSYguy (talk) 15:12, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Well it has 320 pages, 900 pictures, covers the vehicles from 1900 to 2015. Tis aircraft Tug is in bigger numbers in service in the Swiss Military than for eg the Saurer 6DM Firefighting Trucks who are used on the AFB, but It is nor for wikipedia or the book relevant how many vehicles wehre build, even if only one was build it is enoug. Also you have to think of the size of the Swiss Military if you rise the questin  about how much about it is in this book,a lot of vehices(types) in the Swiss Military doesent reach the number of 80-70 units. The Bucher aircraft tractor is the most important and most used aircraft Tug of the Swiss Air Force, it is used on every AFB and  used with nearly the whole fleet of the Swiss Air Force, F-5E, F-5F, F/A-18C, F/A-18D, Superpuma, Cougar, Falcon900, DHC-6, Be1900 Be350,PC-6, PC-7, PC-12, ..PC-24. How ever  to get back to the point today we have an interpendend  Book published with an ISBN.FFA P-16 (talk) 15:55, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * Once again you fail to answer the question; how much of those 320 pages is about the tug, one paragraph? Two? Less? It is completely irrelevant that it is used for moving nearly the whole inventory of the Swiss Air Force, is there significant coverage in multiple independent sources? Here's another question; how many different vehicles are covered in the book's 320 pages? YSSYguy (talk) 19:48, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
 * With all respect, this is now bizarre. Firstly, there is no wikipedia rule which prescribes how many pages in a book are necessary to make it valid for a topic as a reference. A book in which even the 20 GMC K 3500 covers of the Swiss army are listed. We now have an independent reference more than at the last delete discussion. Now you conduct an interrogation me about this book, at the same time it seems completely no matter the MB-2 tow tractor and U-30 Tow Tractor have no reference at all. The reference is given here and such a discrepancy of the reference is not appropriate, you can use googel and you can buy the book, if you want more details.FFA P-16 (talk) 03:11, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

There is a relevant Wikipedia rule, it is about the existence of significant coverage. If there is significant coverage, then the subject is notable, so it would help your case to demonstrate that there is such significant coverage, instead of repeating all the time "there's a book and it talks about the Bucher aircraft tractor". Nobody is disputing that the book exists (at least not now). Nobody is disputing that it is independent coverage. The question - and it's a very simple one - is, is it significant coverage? Typical obfuscation and "smoke and mirrors" on your part, refusing to answer questions when they are legitimately asked. Curious that you would add a reference without adding any more content to the article - perhaps it is because there is nothing in the book that is not already in the one-paragraph article. Feel free to nominate the MB-2 tow tractor and U-30 Tow Tractor articles for deletion and I will !vote to delete them at AfD; I have already nominated both of them for deletion once (here and here), so it will have to be via AfD discussions for them. YSSYguy (talk) 05:26, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I definitvil will NOT to nominate the MB-2 tow tractor and U-30 Tow Tractor articles for deletion! I am not one of this people who want ban informations! An I definitv would not vote for deletion if you (or someone other) nominate them again. No your queestion is not legitimately asked. It is only compulsion and harassment. I its so important for you.. Buy the Book!.The discussion of me with you is finished.Bye.FFA P-16 (talk) 17:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't need to buy the book. If you already have this book and it has a lot of detailed information in it, that will prove that the subject is notable, add the information to the article. Once you have demonstrated that there is significant coverage by expanding the article, I will change my !vote to keep. Otherwise, everything you have written here amounts to "it is notable because I say it is and the people who are arguing against my unsubstantiated pronouncement of notability are harassing me". YSSYguy (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.