Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bulgaria–Indonesia relations (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 02:47, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Bulgaria–Indonesia relations
AfDs for this article: 
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the notability of this was questioned in another current AfD. since last time was no consensus 3 years ago, putting it for discussion. I feel the coverage is WP:ROUTINE, a bit of assistance and a bit of trade but nothing aboyt an indepth relationship. LibStar (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete: Essentially every mention of Bulgaria in this article could be replaced by almost any other country, and the same goes for almost every mention of Indonesia, save for the tsunami. ( What would quantum physicist make of this form of invariance, I wonder. ) הסרפד  (call me “Hasirpad”) (formerly R——bo) 00:55, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - another one of these strange articles. Pure WP:SYNTH. Stalwart 111  11:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep I believe it meets WP:GNG. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 15:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep The countries have made bilateral agreements. This is undoubtedly dull stuff but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an entertainment. Warden (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bulgaria-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bilateral relations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:53, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep article is about a real international relationship, nothing synthetic about it at all. Sufficent sources exist to establish notability. The article also boasts an original map by editor Plumoyr, a co-worker of the legendary Groubani! FeydHuxtable (talk) 14:46, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * the map is irrelevant to notability. Plumoyr/groubani are sockpuppets and banned editor. LibStar (talk) 17:10, 11 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - surely two countries mutually acknowledging each other's existence is not enough to substantiate "bilateral relations". One treaty does not bilateral relations make (surely, unless there is some longer term WP:EFFECT). Contributions of small amounts of aid, while valuable and helpful, are surely considered routine in instances where many other countries also gave aid. It is synthesis, I think, to consider a group of minor, fairly routine incidents/agreements and determine there is some broad (and significantly covered and notable) relationship between the two. So many of these essays have come up for deletion that I think it's about time we have a look at a more substantive review than individual AFDs. But anyway... Stalwart 111  22:34, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep - The countries have bilateral relations, which makes this an encyclopedic topic. The article has verifiable information published in multiple sources, making this a GNG pass. I understand neither the mentality of those who write this sort of article nor those who challenge them at AfD... I do believe that this meets our notability guidelines, however. Carrite (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep per Col. Warden and Carrite. Bilateral relations may be boring, but the consensus -- hammered out over many AfDs -- is that, if proven significant, they can be notable.  Evidence here of significant bilateral relations include: a bilateral "memorandum of understanding on trade", their "respective presidents pledged agreement on combating international terrorism", state news agencies having a "cooperative relationship," and unilateral assistance by Bulgaria "after the tsunami of December 26, 2004." Bearian (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Do you really think they are significant though? A President visited somewhere and offered the usual diplomatic platitudes about cooperation on terrorism and trade (Indonesia being the most populous Islamic nation, terrorism is always, insultingly perhaps, one of the first things mentioned by foreign government visitors). Surely a President would offer the same niceties wherever he visited? Did the two Presidents even meet? The "respective presidents pledged" line is from the article but it's not really supported by the source article which just says that one president visited the other's country for 3 days. The reference for the MOU is now a dead link. I can accept that it once existed, but let's not suggest this was some form of free trade agreement or complex trade treaty. It was likely, "we'll make general non-specific effort to not impede trade". And everyone (I mean everyone ) gave aid after the 2004 tsunami. The amount in this instance is tiny compared to other countries and tiny compared to the overall aid relationships that either country has with other countries. Bulgaria's annual tourism-related contribution to Indonesia is probably higher. This is an obscure combination of countries for a "relationship" article supported by fairly routine (run-of-the-mill-type) interaction between the two. Stalwart 111  22:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

"respective presidents pledged agreement on combating international terrorism" I'm yet to see a world leader not want to cooperate on fighting terrorism, how about evidence of actual action not simply one off press statements? LibStar (talk) 23:16, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep International relations between countries are notable, although sometimes also dull. Canuck 89 (have words with me)  08:40, January 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep – This topic passes WP:N, section GNG. Source examples include (some are non-English):, , , , , , , . Northamerica1000(talk) 11:25, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep quoting WP:ROUTINE "Wedding announcements, obituaries, sports scores, crime logs, foreign medical aid, international governmental agreements, establishing diplomatic embassies ." Not quite in the same ballpark. --99of9 (talk) 02:40, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.