Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bung Karno Seclusion House


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Guerillero Parlez Moi 22:33, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Bung Karno Seclusion House

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Non-notable as per WP:SIGCOV. Article has been a stub for eight years Davidelit (Talk) 03:34, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Indonesia-related deletion discussions.  Kpg  jhp  jm  03:56, 3 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Strong Oppose The place is notable with lots of coverage and historical significance
 * 1. https://www.kompas.com/sains/read/2022/06/01/160200523/jokowi-kunjungi-rumah-pengasingan-bung-karno-di-ende-ini-sejarahnya?page=all
 * See Google translated version in English.--Doncram (talk) 05:03, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 2. https://www.liputan6.com/regional/read/3545434/semarak-parade-pancasila-mengenang-kedatangan-bung-karno-di-ende
 * See Google-translated version. "Bung Karno"="Sukarno". There's an annual boat parade. The site is all about conception of 5 principles (pancasila). --Doncram (talk) 05:18, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 3. https://www.tribunnews.com/nasional/2022/06/01/jokowi-dan-iriana-sempatkan-waktu-singgah-di-rumah-pengasingan-bung-karno-di-kabupaten-ende-
 * Translated. Site is in recent news, with current president Jokowi visiting June 1, 2022. It's a political pilgrimage photo op destination, perhaps to invoke spirit of pancasila (politics) when cross ethnic reconciliation is needed ( my speculation). In Tribune News(?), perhaps Tribune Content Agency, associated with Chicago Tribune? --Doncram (talk) 05:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * FWIW, Tribunnews is the online news site of Tribun Network. IMO a RS, 100% Indonesian-owned, no relation to similar sounding US media (such as the Los Angeles Tribune). –Austronesier (talk) 19:09, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * 4. https://travel.kompas.com/read/2020/06/06/170100927/7-tempat-wisata-yang-rekam-napak-tilas-soekarno?page=all
 * 7 tourist sites following Sukarno's footsteps, translated. The 2 exile houses, and the devotional park with breadfruit tree in Ende are 3 of the 7. By the way i now think "Sukarno Exile Houses" would be better article name. --Doncram (talk) 05:43, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * ---Nyanardsan (talk) 07:17, 3 June 2022 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗  plicit  12:38, 10 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Architecture-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 07:55, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:NBUILD "Buildings, including private residences, may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability." (my bold). Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 22:19, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Merge to Sukarno. As it stands now, the page is effectively a dab to two topics (= two places where Sukarno stayed in exile), but without targets. Instead, it has one (!) sentence for each place. Unless we can't say more than is already found in the main article about Sukarno, we don't need this ill-composed stub. –Austronesier (talk) 09:53, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
 * There is more to say. The article should be developed and/or tagged to call for development. E.g. from this source and other travel/museum sources give details that the house was rented and is east-facing (towards Mecca i think is the importance), there is an associated breadfruit tree, the museum includes furnishings, etc., detail that is not appropriate for the Sukarno article. Also place-type categories needed, not appropriate for a bio article.--Doncram (talk) 00:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * One Indonesian government propaganda article does not make WP:SIGCOV. Davidelit (Talk) 03:50, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * About what more there is to say about both places, see Indonesian language wikipedia article webpage put through Google Translate (hope this link works). Besides details about both places and a photo that can be used, both sites are apparently listed buildings on Indonesia's register of historic/cultural properties. So like US sites on National Register of Historic Places, there will exist more documentation. Slam. --Doncram (talk) 04:47, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete - it is a case where a single title for two locations seems to be missed somehow... (there was a tradition for some rulers of three hundred years earlier, that each place where the ruler slept was considered sacred or special...) - the information tendered could be re-allocated at a more suitable location perhaps. JarrahTree 12:41, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. The site in Ende is a museum; see wp:ITSAMUSEUM (to which i contributed). This account of a visitor in Indonesia Expat gives background on significance: it is in a remote area of Indonesia where Sukarno, who became Indonesia's first president and who led it to independence from the Dutch, was exiled for four years. It was a formative, creative period. And, as a preserved place, it seems highly significant to Indonesian history. Like, say, Monticello where an American writer involved in the American Revolution lived (but that was his chosen home). I think there are other places of exile important in other nations' history: how about the prison island where Nelson Mandela was held, where he wrote and developed as a great leader?
 * The Indonesia Expat source states alternative name for the home/museum as "Situs Pengasingan Soekarno", which should also be searched upon.
 * Of course Americans like me know little about history of Indonesia, the largest Muslim nation by population. Hardly any Americans would guess the population rank of Indonesia among countries (4th largest!). About 0.000% could distinguish Sukarno vs. military dictator Suharto; i certainly haven't been always been clear myself. Deletion here would amount to bias. --Doncram (talk) 20:27, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment So the page is actually about the one place in Ende? This is what I gather from the keep/oppose !votes so far. But the article in one breath talks about the much less known site in Bengkulu too. So what's notable then? The museum in Ende? It certainly is. Or the overarching topic of two houses that served as places for Bung Karno's exile? That's a dab or a category, but not an article. –User:Austronesier (talk) 20:50, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm glad we agree there is notability. My impression is that they were both places of exile, or at least homes of Sukarno, and they certainly could both be covered in one article. If there's plenty to say about the other one, too, like if it is clearly separately Wikipedia-notable then it can be split out. Otherwise the article can just have short mention of it, which would be fine. Leave it to editors actually developing the topic to make sensible decisions. --Doncram (talk) 22:36, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Also some/more !voters oughta translate the references provided by first commenter; i have not done so.--Doncram (talk) 22:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
 * This provides more info. Certainly the article can mention the breadfruit tree nearby, under which Sukarno contemplated pancasila (politics), the 5 principles. --Doncram (talk) 22:51, 21 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment None of delete !voters above I suspect neither of the two delete !voters above after the nominator had read translated versions of the four sources named by "strong oppose" first commenter [because i found it difficult to get translations myself, and they don't say they did]. Frankly i think this is ready to be closed "Keep". --Doncram (talk) 05:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * You don't know what people read. I read the original articles - except for the one that is a deadlink. Two report the same story, while one has a few sentences with almost no content. Still doesn't meet [[WP:SIGCOV. Davidelit (Talk) 06:26, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Okay i modified my assertion. You're the deletion nominator. What source is a deadlink? Perhaps u mean the Floretourism one, second source in the article (i'm not sure it's dead)? None of the 4 sources cited by strong opposer above are deadlinks. You probably didn't find all four and read them before your nomination, did you?; have you now read them? -Doncram (talk) 06:53, 23 June 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment The first source is a press release. The second doesn't mention the house. The third source is from the same press release. The fourth source is a mention in a listicle. To reiterate my delete vote above, which was clearly unread, "Fails WP:NBUILD "Buildings, including private residences, may be notable as a result of their historic, social, economic, or architectural importance, but they require significant in-depth coverage by reliable, third-party sources to establish notability."" Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 07:00, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep. A clearly notable place. It is listed to Indonesia's equivalent to American National Register of Historic Places. It can be seen in this site. In depth coverage by reliable sources can be seen here, here and here. Indonesian government sources (in this case, their Cabinet Secretary) has called the place to be the birthplace of Indonesian Pancasila. Per WP:NBUILDING as the building is clearly a national heritage buildings for Indonesia, notability is assumed.  &maltese; SunDawn &maltese;     (contact)   08:25, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep because a translation of the government page states "Bung Karno's House of Exile, the Beginning of the Birth of Pancasila." This cite posted by SunDawn convinces me this site is a notable place. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 11:54, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Comment and CNN Indonesia states Pancasila (politics) is the "basis of the Indonesian state". Bung Karno Seclusion House, was the "birthplace" of Pancasila. --The Eloquent Peasant (talk) 11:59, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 *  This AfD discussion includes a proposal for merger to Sukarno,,, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , and a notice of the proposed merger was posted to on 22 June 2022. As such, this AfD discussion may need to be extended or relisted to incorporate input from.


 * Keep. Passes WP:NBUILDING per the cogent argument made by SunDawn.4meter4 (talk) 07:36, 25 June 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.