Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Burning of the Burning Embers pub


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz Humbug! 06:37, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Burning of the Burning Embers pub

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Insignificant event during the Troubles, fails WP:NEVENTS by a significant way. I will take each reference in turn.

Every other footnote is completely and totally irrelevant. I was tempted to deal with each in turn, but I'll simply say they all relate to incidents in 1972 and 1975, so irrelevant to significance of this event in 1971
 * 1) "CAIN: Chronology of the Conflict 1969" Background information from events in 1969 only, irrelevant to significance of this event in 1971
 * 2) "AN PHOBLACHT/REPUBLICAN NEWS" Background information for event that occurred in 1970, irrelevant to significance of this event in 1971
 * 3) "Archived copy" I'm not even going to link to per WP:COPYLINK. It's an illegal download of a book cited elsewhere in the article, Voices from the Grave by Ed Moloney. This book will be addressed later
 * 4) CAIN: Chronology of the Conflict 1971" CAIN's database attempts to include every shooting and bombing (and other incidents) during the Troubles, inclusion on their list is irrelevant for demonstrating significance. Their total coverage is Members of the Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA) engaged in a gun battle with members of the Provisional IRA (PIRA). One man was killed. The feud between the two wings of the IRA had been developing ever since the Republic movement split on 11 January 1970.
 * 5) THE BLANKET * Index: Current Articles" is an article by Brendan Hughes, one of the participants in the incident and thus a primary source.

In the "Sources" section two are listed. CAIN cross tables which is a tool using for sorting CAIN's database of deaths during the Troubles, and is not a reference for this incident. Ed Moloney's Voices from the Grave is cited, the entirety of the coverage of this incident is solely an interview with Brendan Hughes, there is no analysis of the event by the author. This book is an oral history where Hughes talks about his IRA activity in detail. In the absence of any analysis from Moloney, this is also a primary source.

Although not cited in the article, this incident was covered by a paragraph in The Lost Revolution by Brian Hanley and Scott Millar. The "Burning of the Burning Embers pub" is covered in a single sentence which reads The Provisionals raided the Officials’ Burning Embers Bar, where Sullivan was drinking with Paddy Devlin, and tried to burn it down

No significant lasting effect, no historical significance, no in-depth coverage, just a minor feud between two rival organisations. FDW777 (talk) 22:03, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Northern Ireland-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 22:05, 10 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - It clearly fails to meet notability guidelines, as FDW777 has shown. This is one of many Troubles articles made over the past couple of years, by the same two users, which have the very same issues. ~Asarlaí 10:38, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I find with these articles (and looking at how they are constructed and written I'd suggest the "two users" are one and the same) that once you take away the unrelated information from the background and aftermath sections, and other unreferenced claims you're left with very, very little. A sentence or two generally speaking, nothing that demonstrates historical significance. FDW777 (talk) 13:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment While looking into this some more I came across some information that demonstrates very clearly the dangers of using primary sources like "AN PHOBLACHT/REPUBLICAN NEWS" to construct a timeline of events. Gerry Adams has managed to get the date of Tom Cahill's shooting wrong, not by much but still wrong as it was in 1971 not 1970. Both Out of the Ashes: An Oral History of the Provisional Irish Republican Movement by Robert W. White and Joe Cahill: A Life in the IRA by Brendan Anderson state Tom Cahill's shooting happened after the killing of Charlie Hughes (Anderson states it happened only hours later while Cahill was delivering milk, White doesn't state exactly when but it's clear it was very soon after), by Official IRA members that had not been informed of the truce agreed after the death of Charlie Hughes. Both those references and others I checked all tend to focus on the death of Charlie Hughes, the "Burning Embers" and "Cracked Cup" don't get mentioned. That coverage is generally trivial though, and even if this article was re-titled and re-focused I still think it should be deleted. FDW777 (talk) 13:14, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable: has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Scolaire (talk) 13:57, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:56, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 09:57, 17 June 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.