Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Burt Myers


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. For better or for worse, there is no consensus here to delete this article. There are some suggestions for merging scattered around here, and discussion related to those can take place on the article's talk page. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 00:53, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Burt Myers

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Non-notable BLP of a low-level race car driver. Sourcing is VERY sketchy, with both sources being non-secondary and pretty trivial. Unit Anode  19:42, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete as failing to make the grade for notability as a sportsman - see WP:ATH for guidelines which can be applied here. He has not contested at the highest national level in his sport. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:29, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep There is a lot coverage of Burt Myers’ championship NASCAR racing, and he is also the subject of a current TV series on the History Channel . The subject passes WP:ATHLETE and WP:RS. Warrah (talk) 21:03, 1 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep per Warrah, I think there is sufficient coverage available to retain this one.  JBsupreme  ( talk ) 10:43, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Warrah's not being truthful about this. He says "NASCAR", implying it was the big show. It was not. Unit  Anode  13:25, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I am finding what appears to be significant coverage on Google News Archives. If you know me, you would know that I have a pretty conservative view on WP:BLP articles.  Do you feel that the sources documenting this individual are insufficient?   JBsupreme  ( talk ) 20:15, 2 February 2010 (UTC)
 * He doesn't pass WP:ATHLETE, and many of his Ghits are because of having a pretty common name, or simply his race results. That's just not enough. Unit  Anode  14:40, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The Google News Archive search that I cited was for "Burt Myers" and "NASCAR". Unless there are two Burt Myers racing in NASCAR, all of the ghits are for this person. Plus, he is the star of the History Channel series "MadHouse." The article passes WP:GNG, WP:BIO and WP:RS. Warrah (talk) 16:25, 3 February 2010 (UTC)
 * "NASCAR" is generally accepted to refer only to the top level of racing. To be frank, the level Myers races at isn't even on the same plane as the Truck Series. It's the junior circuit of the junior circuit. As for being the "star" of the History Channel series, that's not true either. He's no more the "star" of it than Junior Miller, Bad Brad, Jason Myers, Tim Brown, or Chris Fleming. Unit  Anode  16:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NW ( Talk ) 23:49, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep: Warrah is being truthful and I think there is sufficient coverage available. - Ret.Prof (talk) 23:20, 6 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he's not. He implied that Myers was a real NASCAR racer. He's not. He races at almost the lowest possible level. He's not even CLOSE to fulfilling WP:ATHLETE. Unit  Anode  03:18, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment - There are indeed scores of sources, mostly in the local sporting news that seems to regularly cover the races at the track where Myers races. There's plenty of reliably sourced material from which one could write a competent article.  A number of these are substantial mentions because there are article sections specifically about the details of Myers' participation in a race.  There is also considerable discussion of his relatives in the sport, and some kind of rivalry with another racing family.  I'm not familiar with auto racing but this series of "short track" modified car races seems to be the equivalent of the minor leagues in many sports.  They're professional, full-time, and there is considerable money in them, just at a smaller scale than the big leagues.  Myers, along with his brother, seems to be one among four or five top contenders in this particular stadium series.  The lot of them are apparently stars in MadHouse (TV Show) a History Channel reality series, with Myers' exploits featuring prominently in some episodes.  The documentary shows are themselves sources.  Being the star of a reality show is another path to notability, although I have no clue how significant a show Madhouse is.  It's probably not The Real World.  For what it's worth none of the other drivers in this particular series seem to have their own articles.  - Wikidemon (talk) 14:53, 7 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Two things:
 * 1) Most drivers in this "series" don't do this full time; they have other jobs to support their racing.
 * 2) So now sports stories in local papers are enough to establish notability? If so, then we're in for a slew of high school heroes writing their own biographies, sourced to the many stories about them in local papers.
 * I think that both of these points speak to the general lack of notability of the drivers who race in this lowest possible racing series. Unit  Anode  18:15, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Keep. It's the TV show that really puts it over the top for me, without that notability would be far more questionable. I don't think deletion is appropriate given that Myers is a main "character" on a reality television program, however I would think merging his article to MadHouse (TV Show) could be a good option, particularly if the show stays on the air for at least a little while. But that's not something we need to decide at AfD, and the very fact that a merge is a good possibility precludes deletion for me, in addition to the fact that Myers probably is at least somewhat notable per the general guideline. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:44, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think "merge" would be a fine second option to "delete." However, if we're going to say that being a main character on a reality show "puts it over the top", then perhaps we should revisit the case of Alexis Grace, who was one of the "main characters" on the biggest reality show in America. (Note: this is not to say that I think that Grace should have an article -- though I once did think so -- but rather that if Myers has one, then Grace definitely have one.) Unit  Anode  00:51, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Boy I'm really out of my depth here! NASCAR (not even) which I haven't watched since childhood and American Idol, which I've never even really seen? (I know, I know, I'm not a real American). Never heard of Alexis Grace, but it does seem weird for her to not have an article while all of the other finalists do. One difference between her and Myers is that the latter at least did something which might be considered notable (being a top competitor in what sounds like a minor-league version of NASCAR) before ending up on a reality TV show. I don't know. I'm completely fine with merging/redirecting, but given current guidelines I don't think we can justify deleting the article on a successful athlete who ends up playing a major role in a TV show on the "History" Channel (does that thing have any programs about history anymore? Even the days of Hitler and the Wehrmacht 24/7 were better than shows about pawn shops and small-time racecar drivers.) --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 01:15, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing, though: it's not even really the "minor leagues" of NASCAR. That would be the Truck Series and Nationwide. This isn't even the level down from those. It's a local track, that hosts what could at best be called a "regional" series of 12-14 races. It's a step up from local dirt track racing. If you won every race of the season, you might make $100K or so. He's good for his level, which is just about as low as you can get, and still be marginally "professional." The only thing that makes this even a close case is Madhouse. Unit  Anode  03:12, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I take your word for your description of this particular "tour," and agree the TV show thing is what makes this questionable and a bit of an odd case to say the least. If this AfD closes as keep, I'd say start a discussion about merging/redirecting on the article talk page, or even just boldly do it and see if anyone objects. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:39, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem at this AFD is that WP:ARSEditors have stepped in and convoluted the discussion with very deceptive (I would contend, blatantly false) statements. Unless there's an administrator that actually wants to dig into the truth (and untruth) behind these statements, then this will be closed as a "keep", when it should not be. Unit  Anode  03:46, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
 * I think you're stuck on the phrase "Burt Myers’ championship NASCAR racing" above which I don't think was at all intentionally false or misleading, but rather was someone using the term "NASCAR" loosely and/or without understanding different categories of "NASCAR" (which is certainly the case for me). I think everyone is participating in good faith here, and there is room for legitimate disagreement on the question of notability as you admitted a couple of comments above. As to closing, as of right now it would simply be an incorrect reading of consensus to close this as "delete" since the arguments for keeping are not invalid. Of course that does not preclude merging in any way, and further comments might alter consensus, obviously. --Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 03:56, 9 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep has reliable sources and is a professional NASCAR driver who finished second in a national touring series. The modified series predates the Sprint Cup Series as one of the original series by the sanctioning body. Top drivers are often fully professional as I expect him to be. So it is not one of the big 3 - it's #4. Before you poke me about my background, I am very knowledgeable in NASCAR. I wrote very many NASCAR articles on the history of the sport such as cowriting the Whelen Modified Tour article and writing the NASCAR Convertible Division. The lowest level of NASCAR is the four cylinder class at a local track. To get to this level, he probably succeed at that level, advanced to the highest level of local track, then joined this national touring series. He's far from the bottom level. Many of these races are nationally televised.  Royal broil  03:47, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Most Whelen drivers are not "fully professional." Most work an actual job because the series is so low-rent currently that there's very little chance to fully support yourself from racing alone. The only reason Myers doesn't have to work is because his wife supports him. These "keep" rationales are truly, well, odd. Scott  aka UnitAnode  04:37, 12 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Read the opening bit please.
 * In 1999, at the age of 23, he became the youngest Bowman Gray Stadium track champion in history. He has won more pole awards than any other driver in the Whelen Southern Modified Tour's history.[1][2][3] Myers has five career wins and finished second in the year-end point standings in 2005.[1]

So he is obviously notable.  D r e a m Focus  22:44, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he's not. "Bowman Gray Stadium" is a local quarter-mile track. If everyone who has ever been a "champion" of such a track is notable, we'd better get busy, because there are hundreds of such tracks, and thousands of such "champions." This AFD is so far afield of reality that it's almost embarrassing to watch people knee-jerk "keep" this article based on such flimsy credentials. Scott  aka UnitAnode  16:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep sufficient sources exist to establish notability. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:11, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.