Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Butlerian Jihad


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep for Butlerian Jihad and no consensus for War of Assassins with leave to speedy renominate the latter. The issue of what to merge into what can continue on the article's talk page. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Butlerian Jihad

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

These are all articles about plot elements and events from the Dune series. Wikipedia is not the Dune Wiki; more specifically WP:NOT prohibits articles for plot only descriptions of works of fiction. In addition, WP:WAF establishes that articles about topics in fictional universes must be independently notable, as established by reliable, independent sources. WP:INUNIVERSE outlines some of the problems keeping articles solely devoted to plot details. Savidan 00:35, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete both. I agree with Savidan. This is not the Dune Wiki, and articles about elements of fictional works need to be supported by more than the works themselves. Reyk  YO!  07:48, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Literature-related deletion discussions.  -- TexasAndroid (talk) 12:50, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect Butlerian Jihad to Dune: The Butlerian Jihad as likely search term; delete War of Assassins (or simply redirect to Dune universe). --EEMIV (talk) 13:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep or Merge Dune has been repeatly cited as one of the most influence science fiction novels of the century. Deleting or removing information would be setting a dangerous precedence. Such genres such as Star Wars would also require heavy merging if the result was delete. It has been cited by multiple sources and has been covered in multiple works of fiction. Valoem   talk  15:08, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Star Wars articles have gone, and continue to undergo, massive merging, redirection and deletion -- much to the improvement of the wikiproject and Wikipedia as a whole. The Dune wikiproject, if there is one, should follow suit, and save repetition of in-universe plot summary to specialized fan wikis. --EEMIV (talk) 15:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both. Notable fictional elements that have recevied coverage in secondary sources.  Merging is a cleanup action, and AfD is not for cleanup. Jclemens (talk) 16:53, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Uh, what secondary sources? War of Assassins has no sources at all, and Butlerian Jihad is supported only by the Dune novels and the official Dune encyclopedia. Reyk  YO!  23:25, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * &hellip; and the four sources mentioned by Groomtech below, and page 102 of ISBN 9780387285986 &hellip; Uncle G (talk) 00:34, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions.  —Jclemens (talk) 16:54, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep or perhaps merge, depending if criticism can be found, and it seems it can, at least for BJ. These are central plot elements in a major fiction. Content for articles like this is best supported by the primary source, in any case, and there is no agreement that NOT PLOT applies to the individual articles that make up the Wikipedia coverage of a fiction, just to the total overall coverage. As for the amount of detail, it seems appropriate for a general encyclopedia .  One specializing in Dune would have much more--I hope it would, anyway. In any case, redirects are appropriate.  DGG (talk) 03:49, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect Butlerian Jihad to Dune universe, an existing overview of the topic which I've just bolstered with content and references from here. Fellow Dune fans should know that I've also made sure that notable info in this article has been adequately covered as appropriate in the Dune Encyclopedia and Legends of Dune articles. Is it possible for the nominator to boldly redirect the article, or do we need to wait this out?— TAnthonyTalk 07:21, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Redirect War of Assassins to List of Dune terminology, where the term is mentioned.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 10:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as over coverage (and I know, I've read the first six or so books). These are not major plot elements, they are minor bits of verbiage by Frank Herbert that have been inflated by fans into, uh, Cruft!™ They have been abetted by Brian Herbert milking his father's work for his living. Jack Merridew 09:14, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If you've read the books you should realize that the concept of the Jihad (no computers allowed) is what shapes just about every element of the Dune universe, making a redirect to the section I've suggested a more sensible move than a wholesale deletion. And your bias aside, the fact that someone wrote three additional books about it (inferior though they may be) also lends some notability.&mdash; TAnthonyTalk 10:36, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thing is, it is hardly mentioned in the original books. Ya, they've no computers, but the fans, including Herbert-the-younger, have mostly made-up what Frank might have meant. This is in-universe fans abhorring a vacuum. Cheers, Jack Merridew 12:11, 18 July 2009 (UTC)Herbert's death in 1986 left his vision of the actual events of the Butlerian Jihad unexplored and open to speculation.
 * I'm advocating a merge, but you seem to be suggesting that the content in the article is pushing fan analysis or assertions. As far as I can tell, it is succinctly explaining the concept by quoting from the series. The lack of computers in this fictional universe is what has shaped all factions and technology in the series, it may not need a lengthy article but it's worth more than a footnote.05:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Butlerian Jihad. Google Scholar gives L DiTommaso - Science Fiction Studies, 1992; JL Grigsby - Science Fiction Studies, 1981; D Palumbo - Science Fiction Studies, 1998; Peter Lunenfeld; Afterimage, Vol. 23, 1996.  Seems enough to establish notability of the concept.  Groomtech (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Butlerian Jihad. Well-sourced, well-organized article, not in-universe treatment, dealing with important fictional concept in highly popular and influential series of novels.  War of Assassins is in-universe and can be redirected. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 01:54, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep or possibly merge and redirect. I came to the article by accident from outside the Dune universe and found it clear and to the point.  It is not cruft if the article is exactly what you were interested in; digging through a bigger Dune universe article for the few relevant points would be practically nothing but cruft.  magetoo 10:36, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.